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From: "Elise Friedman" <>
Subject: [DNA] More Jewish E1b1b (was: Ashkenazi DNA (was R1b1c10 in theBaltics?) )
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:25:20 -0400


Anatole Klyosov wrote:
> I have given here a reference on: Anatole Klyosov.
> Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. pp. 54-232.
> Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy,
> v. 1, No. 1 (Special Edition).
> Now, pp. 127-150 there all about haplogroup E1b1b and subgroups,
> along with ten haplotype trees, all about this very haplogroup.
> There are four principal common ancestors, as I have indicated.

Who are these four principal ancestors? What are their haplotypes and
subclades?

> Furthermore, I have never said that that "Ashkenazi Y haplogroup
> E sub-clades are all derived from Levantine/Judean sources?".
> I have just determined that all of them (or almost all of them)
> descended from one common ancestor who lived 6,800 plus-minus 400
> years BP.

There are Jews in E* and in all the major E1b1b subclades. While I haven't
done TMRCA calculations on the Jewish E* and E1b1b clusters yet, I do know
that haplogroup E is estimated to have arisen roughly 50,000 years ago! So
it's impossible to conclude that Jews in E* and E1b1b shared a single common
ancestor only 6800 years ago.

Forgetting about the E* guys for a moment, it's also impossible to conclude
that all Jews in E1b1b shared a common ancestor only 6800 years ago. As I
just mentioned, Jews are in all major E1b1b subclades -- E1b1b1*, E1b1b1a,
E1b1b1b, E1b1b1c -- therefore their most recent common ancestor would be an
E1b1b1. E1b1b1 is estimated to have arisen somewhere around 25,000 years
ago, long before the 6800 years that you apparently calculated.

> The thing is that the Jewish E1b1b base (ancestral) haplotype ...

"The" Jewish E1b1b ancestral haplotype? No such thing. Once again, Jewish
people are found in all major E1b1b subclades, therefore the most recent
common ancestor for all Jewish E1b1bs had to be an E1b1b1, which arose long
before organized religion. You can calculate a modal based on Jewish
people's haplotypes all you want, but that modal can't represent a single
common Jewish ancestor for all of Jewish E1b1b, since such an ancestor
didn't exist.

> (I will give only the first 12 markers)
> 13-24-13-10-16-18-11-12-12-13-11-30
> ... is exactly the same as the "lay folks" (non-Jewish) the most
> frequent haplotype in YSearch database:
> 13-24-13-10-16-18-11-12-12-13-11-30

This is the 12-marker modal haplotype for E-V13 (E1b1b1a2), which is, by
far, the most populous E1b1b subclade in the databases and therefore it
calculates out as the modal haplotype for all of E1b1b. However, again, we
can't assume that the modal haplotype is the ancestral haplotype.

While there are indeed Jewish people in E-V13 -- so far, one cohesive
cluster and a bunch of individuals who don't cluster as cohesively -- it's a
low percentage compared to the number of Jewish people in other E1b1b
subclades, especially E-M34.

Now, there is a Jewish E-M34 cluster that has a 12-marker modal haplotype
which differs from the E-V13 modal by only one marker value (DYS385a=17 vs
16). This is a relatively large and cohesive cluster and I have more
members from this cluster in my Jewish E1b1b database than I have Jewish
E-V13.

Due to the extremely similar 12-marker haplotypes of E-V13 and this Jewish
E-M34 cluster, it is absolutely necessary to compare more than 12 markers to
distinguish between them. 37 markers is always enough for my trained eye to
distinguish them, with DYS460, GATAH4 and YCAII being the most telling
markers.

That said, while this particular E-M34 cluster is a relatively large Jewish
cluster, it still does not constitute the largest percentage of Jewish E1b1b
either.

The largest Jewish E1b1b cluster appears to be a different one in E-M34,
whose 12-marker modal is:
14-25-13-9-17-18-11-12-12-13-11-30

There's plenty more that I could say about Jewish E1b1b haplotypes, and even
non-Jewish E1b1b haplotypes, but I think I've said enough for now.

The bottom line here is that you tried to pigeonhole all Jewish E1b1bs into
a neat little box containing a single Jewish MRCA who allegedly lived 6800
years ago, but such a thing doesn't exist. The fact that Jews are in all
the major E1b1b subclades -- E1b1b1a, E1b1b1b, E1b1b1c -- means that their
most recent common ancestor was an ancestor of these subclades. E1b1b1a is
estimated to have been arisen 22,000 years ago, E1b1b1b around 5-6000 years
ago, and I don't have data for E1b1b1c handy. So just taking E1b1b1a as the
oldest for now, we're still looking at an estimated 20,000+ years ago for
the MRCA of these subclades.

Of course, this all assumes that the published estimates for the E1b1b and
subclades origins are somewhat on target. If you want to challenge those
estimates, then that's another story.


Regards,

Elise Friedman
Jewish E1b1b (E3b) Project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishE3b





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