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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-07 > 1214992120


From: "Greek DNA project" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Jews of northern Greece
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 12:48:40 +0300
References: <46080.81219.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <46080.81219.qm@web52101.mail.re2.yahoo.com>


Hello Ellen,
Just to clarify:

My comment about the "speculative" nature of the Philistines only relates to
the fact,that experts do not agree on the precise location of their origin.
I was just referring to the large amount of discussion regarding their
origin, not disputing, that they may have had a non local origin.Perhaps
"speculative" was entirely the wrong word to use.

There were mental leaps in my summary, which I didn't make clear.To clarify
further : Perhaps (hypothetically) the Philistines _were_ of European
origin, in which case there could be "European" mtDNA haplotypes in the
current Jewish mtDNA genepool, that are currently interpreted to entered the
genepool post diaspora, but may have actually entered the Jewish genepool
prior to the diaspora.To be clear - I'm not advocating this idea (nor am I
disputing it - my opinion is neutral), I'm just stating the logical endpoint
of what your original post (regarding Philistines) suggested.

Whether there is any validity in the hypothesis above is debatable,and the
most parsimonious explanation would always be a post-diaspora introduction
to the genepool.The most parsimonious explanation isn't necessarily always
what really happened - but we'll never know for sure (we just have
probabilities to work on).Unless of course, one day an ancient DNA study
finds the haplotype in a key archaeological find.That is the point I
intended to make when I concluded,that we can never know anything 100% for
sure.

Regarding the original thread topic:

1. In doing my genealogical research I have read original Venetian source
archive material (from areas in Greece controlled by Venetians in the past),
and have seen original archive material records which refer to specific
individuals as being converted to Christianity from Judasim.

2. I still don't see any concrete evidence that there were "huge" numbers
of Greek converts to Judasim (in post diaspora times).Your reference
specifically referred to Roman converts (and I subsequently pointed out that
"Roman" is not synonymous with Greek).

3. There is source material which explicitly states that in 1519, a major
proportion of the population of Thessalonika (Northern Greece) were Jewish
-- the quote is below:

"By ca. 1500, the numbers had grown to 7,986 Greeks, 8,575 Muslims, and
3,770 Jews, but by 1519, there were 15,715, 54% of the city's population.
The invitation of the Sephardic Jews expelled from Spain by Ferdinand and
Isabella, was an Ottoman demographic strategy aiming to prevent the Greek
element from dominating the city."

( The New Cambridge Medieval History p.779 - Rosamond McKitterick,
Christopher Allmand )

I hope,that I have given sufficient explanation.

Finally, I will be unsubscribing from the list until the Autumn - summer
holidays ( Vacation )

Best regards,
Costa

2008/7/1 ellen Levy <>:

> Costa:
>
> Thank you for the synopsis.
>
> Readers can of course conclude what they wish, but I hope the main thing
> they conclude is not that the origins of the Philistines is speculative. I
> presented two archaeological sources - Killebrew & Na'aman - whom I believe
> would also heartily disagree as well. I made the invitation to Andrew to
> present similar reasonable scientific evidence or even basic research
> sources to support the idea that their origins were either speculative or
> that the movement of the Philistines was via a cultural diffusion process.
>
> While there are two or three theories concerning whether the Philistines
> originated in the western or eastern Aegean, there is concensus among
> archaeologists that they were not a local development and did not arrive on
> the shores of southern Canaan via a cultural diffusion process. I frankly
> don't see this as any different than archaeologists debating which town or
> region various Viking sailors came from as they landed on the shores of the
> British Isles. There may be debate as to the region or town in modern-day
> Sweden or Denmark or Norway they originated from, but consensus that they
> originated from outside the British Isles from the general region of
> Scandinavia. I don't think that makes their consensus speculative.
>
> As for the direction of geneflow, I assume you may be referring to the
> beginning of this thread in which the possibility of gene flow from
> Sephardic Greek Jews was proposed into northern Greece. I think when one
> considers gene flow in this situation, it is important to remember that the
> Jewish communities were extremely small compared to the non-Jewish host
> population. This remained the case up until about the 17th century in
> Eastern Europe with the Ashkenazi communities. Thus, gene flow from the
> Jewish community would possibly be completely swamped by the larger
> non-Jewish population.
>
> I'm not sure one can be 100% sure of anything in the field of population
> genetics. I'm not sure people are looking for 100% assurance. More
> importantly, however, I think given enough information and meticulous
> research, one can make reasonable proposals about the direction of gene flow
> of, say, R02 between Jewish and non-Jewish Greek descendants. I think we
> do this all the time on the list regarding origins of haplogroups, gene flow
> and population movements, realizing that none of the proposals are
> necessarily conclusive but hopefully reasonable and fits the evidence well.
>
> Ellen Coffman
>
>
>
>
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