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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-07 > 1215467656


From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] J1 clusters
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:54:16 +0000


Ellen Levy wrote:

>I definitely made a mistake. Didn't know the genetic community went out and
changed a perfectly good haplogroup designation - haplogroup K - to haplogroup
T.

Ellen,

This is not the point. Everyone makes mistakes. It was your "tone" regarding haplogroup T and your personal remarks.

I have a simple suggestion. Do not get personal, and stick to DNA genealogy. As simple as that. And you will have no needs to complain.

If agreed, I will continue.

> So back to the question: What are the twenty K2 haplogroups you
found among your Jewish samples?


Probably, "haplotypes", not "haplogroups". You see, I try to be helpful. Look up in the "K" and "K2" (or probably T by now) section in YSearch, and you will see 10 and 20 of them, respectively. Nine more were taken from Behar et al (2004) paper, however, in a 10-marker format. He did not separate them into K and K2, however, and I have tried to do it with my haplotype trees.

>I also noted that you picked through the questions and only answered the one's
you were comfortable answering. Shall I restate the one's you skipped?


Those that I "skipped", I indicated that they are not related to DNA genealogy. You have seen those comments. I have asked you to rephrase them. If you did it, please restate.

>"In fact, the R1a1 haplogroup can be met among native peoples of the Middle
East, such as Bedouins, Kurds, Arabs and Jews...In study (Nebel et al, 2001a) 33
haplotypes of R1a1 haplogroup have been identified in representative of all four
populations living in the Middle East. Only the Jews who currently live in
Israel came back after some two millennia in the Diaspora; the other three
groups of native Middle Easterners presumable continue the lineage of their
predecessors who never left their homeland for a long time."

1. What makes these groups "native," particularly Arabs, who migrated out of
North Africa and Saudi Arabia in the 7th century AD?

I call them "native" in accord with Nebel et al (2001) who noted that "Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolitic inhabitants of the area" (p. 1105).

2. Why do you compare Ashkenazi R1a to these groups?

Because I wanted to. Is it a legitimate reply?

Another my prime interest is in R1a1 haplogroup, which I belong to. Is it enough for my interest?

>So why do you draw the comparison between Jews and Bedouin and Arabs among their
R1a1 results?


First, see above. Second, I study common ancestors of R1a1 lineages all over the world.

>You suggest that AShkenazi R1b was obtained from ancient Celts or "Tribes of
Wales"...

You are confused again. I have never mentioned Celts or Tribes of Wales in that context you have wrongly described. I just gave as a reference R1b and R1b1 AMH, and indicated that:

"The most widespread haplotypes in haplogroup R1b and its subgroups R1b1 (P25) and R1b1c (M269) belong to the so-called Atlantic Modal Haplotype, in a 6-marker format

14-12-24-11-13-13

and in a 12-marker format

13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

This haplotype is also called Benelux Modal haplotype, Ancient Celtic haplotype, Tribes of Wales haplotype, East Anglia Modal haplotype, and some other names".

Then, in a section "Jewish R1b haplotypes and Atlantic Modal haplotypes" I essentially repeated:

"In a 12-marker format the Jewish ancient R1b haplotype

13-24-14-11-11-14-12-12-12-13-13-29

exactly matches known West-European modal haplotypes, such as Benelux Modal haplotype, Ancient Celtic haplotype, Tribes of Wales haplotype, East Anglia Modal haplotype. These are possible areas from where this haplotype could have reached ancient pre-Jewish people".

Would you please discuss substance? Do you have anything against the above statement?

>You claim that you employ all Jewish samples available to you, but do not pay
attention to their location. This seems a gross oversight on your part.


Well, may be. I am not a magician. This is not my last paper, I hope.
As old Romans used to say - "I have done my best. And those who can do better, let do it better".

>Never do you mention the probability that a non-Jewish ancestor simply founded that lineage rather than one of your occurringcks occuring...

It is incorrect. Actually, plain wrong. Read again. In fact, you have asked my a question about the Gypsies (R2), haven't you? How about the R1a1 "entry"? R1b? E1b1b? Q? G1? G2? G2c? I? I2b1? In all these cases I have indicated that these haplogroups got to Jewish communities from non-Jewish ancestors.

Anatole Klyosov

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