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From: "David Faux" <>
Subject: [DNA] Age of R1b
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 11:26:48 -0700


Ken and Sasson:

Sasson: There is nothing in the published literature that would give a
TMRCA of R1a and R1b at anything other than sometime after 18000 years ago
(extratpolating from Karafet et al. (2008)) but a number of studies have
posited a date circa 10,000 years ago for R1a1. No where is it reported
that the age is "confirmed to be 5000 years" - if so what journal article
published this figure.

Ken: As an example of the error in the dates below, Contu et al. (2008)
provided an estimate of 28,000 years for the R-M269 of Sardinia (which could
be R-U152).

The dates below are nowhere reflected in the published literature and it
appears that the latter are experiencing a renewed focus on the Zhivotovsky
et al. (2006) figures (e.g., most recent study by Underhill) where it is
necessary (due to bottlenecks etc.) to multiply the pedigree rates by a
factor of 3.6 in order to obtain evolutionary effective rates. The dates
below do not correspond with data from the archaeological record and must be
considered suspect unless found in a peer reviewed study - nothing of this
nature has reached my radar.

As far back as 2001 Forster was advocating the need to calibrate mutation
rates with archaeological dated events (e.g., the arrival of the first
Native Americans, largely haplogroup Q3, in North America). The dates below
are Bronze Age, a time when Europe was heavily populated east to west and
north to south with relatively stable population figures at these dates.
R1b-S116/P312 comprises over 50% (in places over 90%) of the Y chromosomes
of western Europe. It is inconceivable how these "young dates" could in any
way tally with either the archaeological record of the present day
demographics of Europe.

David K. Faux.

_________________________________________________________________________

R1b came to Europe later, when R1a1 were in full swing all over Europe. Here
are estimates re. R1b (and subclades), first figure obtained from 25-marker
haplotypes, second from 12-marker ones, Sardinia from 8-marker haplotypes,
Armenia from 6-marker haplotypes, Asia from 25-marker haplotypes:

R1b with subclades (overall for about 17,000 haplotypes from YS), 4500-3950
years BP

R1b1 all over Europe, 4625-3375 ybp
Same, a "younger" separate branch (subclade?), 3950-3375 ybp

R1b1c/R-U106/S21, 4225-3375 ybp
Same, DYS425 null, 3375-3200 ybp

R1b1c10/S28/U152, 4375-4175 ybp

R1b1c/R1b-S116, 4450-3675 ybp

R1b Basques (oldest branch), 4025-4425 ybp
R1b Basques (extrap. from different branches), 4600-4325 ybp

R1b1c Sardinia, 3525 ybp
Same, extrap. from different branches, 5025 ybp

R1b Armenia, 11,400 BP

Asian R1b (extrap from different branches) - 16,000 years BP

**************************************
On Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Sasson Margaliot
< > wrote:

> With the age of R1b and R1a1 groups now confirmed to be about 5000 years,
> I would like to re-introduce the suggestion (originally presented in May
> 2006) that the so-called "Centum" branch of Indo-European languages...
> was brought to Western Europe by R1b people in the third millennium BCE.
>

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