Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-09 > 1220719462

From: "David Faux" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] 9RA Autosomal Native American Marker
Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 09:44:22 -0700
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

Excellent point Ann. The only reason that I opt to consider the 19 variant
in an IBD category is its distribution which is not random. It follows a
straight line with no deviations from a single Muslim African tribe to the
Arab populations of regions near the Himalayas to Tibet into China, Inner
Mongolia, then Yakut and Mongolia. From there the only other populations
(it does not occur in any European population tested) are Native American
and the distribution is T shaped and may reflect a migration path here too.
Very interesting distribution which became apparent when I connected the
dots for each population where the 19 variant shows itself. Indeed it could
be a private mutation in one of my European ancestors but there is as yet no
evidence that this variant occurs in this population.

Yes, if we could recover the hapolotype block and test the folks in
the sample group we would know if it is IBD or IBS. The patterning of the
distribution gives me clues. The Sioux originate among the Catawba
population of the Carolinas. The Mohawks (my known NA ancestors) adopted
numerous Catawba people into the tribe each spring when they made their
forays into that territory to settle old scores (old tradiions die hard).
Anyway, the Mohawk could also have this variant but were not tested so who

David K. Faux.

On 9/6/08, <> wrote:
> In a message dated 9/6/2008 12:24:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> writes:
> > I did an analysis of the 19 repeat allele. In the Old World it is found
> in
> > Arab Africa, a cluster of Arab tribes in Afghanistan and surrounds, then
> in
> > a straight line to a Tibetan people residing in China to Inner Mongolia
> of
> > China to the Yakuts and Mongolians to the north and there it stops. Now
> in
> > the New World it is found in the Aleutians, across the Canadian Northwest
> > Territories to the Dogrib and as far as one can go to east with the
> Innuit
> > of Greenland. The direction is then central to the Sioux and southwest
> to
> > the Chihuahua area of Mexico and finally south to the Maya of the Yucatan
> > Penninsula and there it stops. There appears to be structure since there
> is
> > nothing in Central Asia or Europe or the Pacific Islands but there is a
> > linear path to or from Africa. If this represents a single founder
> effect
> > the question becomes "where was the point of origin"? Was it Africa to
> the
> > Arab world to nearby Tibet and Mongolia before crossing the Bering
> Straight,
> > or did it start in the Tibetan area and bifurcate eastward and westward.
> > Either way it must be a very old mutation. I can literally connect the
> dots
> > on the map in the article and it shows a definite path to the New World
> with
> > no detours. All of this may be just one big coincidence, but the fact is
> > that there are ancestral informative markers and with D9S919 (D9S1120) it
> is
> > possible that not only the shortest repeat allele, but also the longest
> > repeat allele could be sending a signal that is there to be read. It at
> > least deserves further study.
> I suspect that some of those 19-repeat alleles are identical by state
> (IBS),
> not identical by descent (IBD). The customary microsatellite mutation rates
> would be applicable, so that 18 could easily mutate to 19 independently in
> different parts of the world. The 9-repeat allele seems to be a special
> case, with
> a very low mutation rate due to its short length. The number of repeats is
> an
> outlier, probably due to one "catastrophic" event with the loss of multiple
> repeats (rather than the one-step mutation model). This makes it more like
> a
> unique event polymorphism, and it would be analogous to the DYS455=8 allele
> that
> can be used to classify subgroups in haplogroup I.
> There is a way we can distinguish alleles that are IBS vs IBD if we look at
> SNPs in the surrounding territory on the chromosome. If an allele is IBD in
> two
> people, then we should see that it's contained inside a relatively long
> haplotype block. If an allele is IBS, then it probably occurred on a
> different
> haplotype background. The type of data you got from your deCODEme test
> would be a
> head start in calculating that, but it's rather difficult to extract
> haplotypes from genotypes.
> Ann Turner
> **************
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