GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-09 > 1221466151
From: "David Faux" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 01:09:11 -0700
I am not certain by any stretch of the imagination or of the term - but for
the moment I will go with Bob McGregor's estimate of 11,400 years before
present. This would fit well with an origin in the lower Rhone Valley, a
split that took some to the Ligurian coast and Sardinia; and the larger
number north following the Rhone into Switzerland to the headwaters of the
Rhine and Danube. This would tie in with some of the early archaeological
cultures in the area such as La Hoguette in the west (from the Cardial /
Impressed Ware group of the Rhone) to the Cortalloid and ultimately Pfyn
etc. groups to the east. I don't think it was long before the Italian and
Swiss Lake Districts were colonized and most of the headwaters of the major
rivers in Central Europe.
Anyway, this is what I picture at the moment, but speculation is all we
have. Any mathematical model unless firmly calculated in indesputable dates
obtained via another discipline is doomed to be plagued by uncertainties in
relation to bottlenecks (how many lineages survived), back mutations, germ
line or evolutionary effective mutation rate, generation age, etc. How can
one put any reliance in datings when it seems that everyone has a different
take on how to approach the problem.
So for now (I am ready willing and able to change at a moment's notice with
robust new data) I will opt for a late Paleolithic, early Mesolithic date
for the first appearance of Mr. U152.
David K. Faux.
On 9/15/08, Tim Janzen <> wrote:
> Dear David,
> I agree with you that these age estimates from the variance method
> must be used with caution and should not be taken as gospel truth at this
> point in time. It is possible that they will need additional revision as
> mutation rates are refined and possibly other variables are taken into
> account. In any case, U152 and its subclades appear to be relatively young
> in Europe relative to the other haplogroups such as I by any measure. Like
> you, I would really like to see results of ancient DNA. I would also like
> to see a representative group of complete Y chromosome sequences for all of
> the major subclades so that we could employ the SNP counting method. I
> would be interested in knowing approximately when you think the U152
> mutation occurred.