Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-09 > 1221575907

From: "David Faux" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:38:27 -0700
References: <><000a01c9179e$2460e010$6401a8c0@alfap43400ak><334D79EB53BE44E5895F93ACB67613A7@bobPC><008f01c91806$bfecfe20$6400a8c0@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <008f01c91806$bfecfe20$6400a8c0@Ken1>

Ok Ken, then you are telling me that you are unable to address what is the
most interesting question among those that occur to me. Here it is. If I
were to get in a time capsule and transport myself back 5000 years, what
would the TMRCA of the R-U152 (L2 ancestral) men alive at that time be?
While I am there I would want to know if there be any L2 derived men on the
planet 3000 BC. Even if Oetsi never left any descendants, was he R-U152 and
if so L2- or L2+? I can already guess from historical sources (Livy) that
there was an expansion about 2600 years ago, which probably included
R-U152. It is also attested in the archaeological record. Hence this is of
significance primarily as a cross validation of what is known via another
source. But, for the moment assuming that the historical sources are
correct, plus assuming that Segovesus and Belovesus were R-U152, what was
the TMRCA of the R-U152 in the groups that participated in the expansion
(assuming that this would be an unbiased dataset)?

David K. Faux.

On 9/16/08, Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote:
> Which of the 15 SNPs already discovered (and a drop in the bucket of all of
> them that exist) will you use to mark the moment your haplogroup
> began? And
> although you can contemplate those dates when the various SNPs have
> occured,
> you can not measure them in principle if a long single line of father to
> sons to grandsons, etc. survive toward the present afterwards and proceed
> into the past before the SNP occurred. The only thing you can measure is
> the next node in the tree. Forget about trees for sample populations;
> right
> now I am talking about the tree for all present members of the haplogroup.
> You can bracket the ages of an SNP; for instance, M307 has an age between
> 22,000 years and 3500 years ago.

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