Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-09 > 1221590514

From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:41:54 -0400
References: <><000a01c9179e$2460e010$6401a8c0@alfap43400ak><334D79EB53BE44E5895F93ACB67613A7@bobPC><><><><>
In-Reply-To: <>

On Sep 16, 2008, at 10:19 AM, David Faux wrote:

> But this is entirely insufficient Vince. It only answers one of
> two basic
> questions. The other is when did the first R-U152 arise - how many
> years
> ago did the first man with U152 walk the planet. If this is
> unknowable it
> is a function of the methods you are using.

We do know that the "first man" with U152 walked the planet some time
after the MRCA for R-S116. And we can use either intraclade variance
for R-U152 or interclade variance for two subclades of R-U152 to
estimate the latest possible moment he walked the planet. It is the
"in between" that is unknowable because, without two or more
descendant lines, we have not data with which to learn anything. You
find the two lineages, and my method will handle it fine. But this
has been pointed out before.

> You are looking at nodes in
> relation to individuals alive today. When Underhill or Cinnioglu (for
> example) speak of the age of a haplogroup they are speaking of the
> length of
> time the mutation has been extant (when it first originated) an
> using the
> diversity we see today to estimate this event.

They are a lot brighter than to think this. Trust me.


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