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Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 19:09:30 +0000
>From: Jim Turner
>Anatole, It appears that you assume that the AMH represents a cluster. It
doesn't. This is clear if you look at 67-marker haplotypes. There is no
67-marker cluster that matches the AMH. The people who match the AMH at 12 or
25 markers belong to many different clusters when you look at 67 markers.
Jim, it does not matter. What matters is that there is a certain number of mutations between
two base ("ancestral") haplotypes per a certain number of their markers. This itself reflects
some tome span between them, which can be calibrated, calculated, and referred to.
That mutational difference is one is 12-marker haplotypes, typically larger in 25-marker haplotypes, still larger in 67-marker haplotypes, etc.
Everything is relative, including "clusters". The people who match (whatever) at 67 markers would not match at 145 markers, and so forth. It does not mean that we should sit still and do nothing. We shape a working procedure, constantly updating and refining it. I am just suggesting what we can do NOW, with a full understanding that things will be further adjusting tomorrow. This is how science is developing. Unless, of course, you have a better procedure.
Regards,
Anatole Klyosov
Jim Turner
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:56:34 +1000
From: "Dennis Wright" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Age of Irish Clusters
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
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> However, as we now believe the split from AMH may well have been 5,700
> years ago, it is quite conceivable this split took place in
> Europe somewhere, and while all lines but one died out,
Ken wrote:-
All lines but one of what died out?
********************************************************************************
My statement was
"We know the MRCA for the Irish Type III cluster lived 1,100 years ago and presumably in the
area of Clare/Tipperary/Limerick as
this
is the greatest concentration of the cluster.
However, as we now believe the split from AMH may well have been 5,700 years
ago, it is quite conceivable this split took place in
Europe somewhere, and while all lines but one died out, fortuitously, the one
guy who survived the last bottleneck, 1,100 years ago,
just happened to be in Ireland at the time!"
In this context, I was saying, perhaps not using my words well, that Irish Type
III is derived from AMH, which Anatole calculates
occurred about 5,700 years ago. But as we calculate the MCRA for this cluster
at 1,100 years ago, all lines except one that
emanated at that split from AMH died out except the one that passed through the
bottleneck in Ireland 1,100 years ago and is now
known as "Irish Type III".
I was musing that the line did not necessarily have to have split from AMH in
Ireland, it could have been anywhere on the continent
if it was 5,700 years ago, just the guy who had the progeny that survives to
this day lived in Ireland.
Dennis W
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