Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-09 > 1222025846

From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:37:26 -0600
References: <><000a01c9179e$2460e010$6401a8c0@alfap43400ak><334D79EB53BE44E5895F93ACB67613A7@bobPC><008f01c91806$bfecfe20$6400a8c0@Ken1><><003201c91c04$e2007ee0$6400a8c0@Ken1><><BAY106-W2121243E0A6A010862F712BC480@phx.gbl>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Gull" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?

> On the one hand, we have a number of documented cultures which seem
> possible as candidates, listed by David in his last message. Given Ken's
> 4000 ybp +/- 1000 years for a TMRCA, David seems to have listed a number
> of possibilities which can't be ruled out today. Also note that the TMRCA
> can occur many generations before a significant expansion.

You misunderstand the most significant TMRCA measurement of 4000 years; it
was to a Nodeman (MRCA) ancestral to S116 and S21. S21 and S116 can not be
older than that Nodeman.

That Nodeman need not have given the age for S21 and S116; those latter
could be theoretically much younger. But in fact when attempts are made to
age them separately they turn out to be about as old as their joint MRCA,
particularly the latter. That's what is meant by things happening fast.

Nodeman is not necessarily an expansion. But the expansions of S21 and S116
came shortly after the Nodeman.

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