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From: Thomas Gull <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:00:04 -0400
References: <mailman.3225.1221526842.2567.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com><000a01c9179e$2460e010$6401a8c0@alfap43400ak><334D79EB53BE44E5895F93ACB67613A7@bobPC><008f01c91806$bfecfe20$6400a8c0@Ken1><ea3bd9560809160738x451988a4w6a1a7ed3505f8e6@mail.gmail.com><003201c91c04$e2007ee0$6400a8c0@Ken1><ea3bd9560809211011h57b2d6d5y1272f1b2747e192e@mail.gmail.com><BAY106-W2121243E0A6A010862F712BC480@phx.gbl> <002d01c91c21$7bbbe620$6400a8c0@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <002d01c91c21$7bbbe620$6400a8c0@Ken1>


I was 100% with you until the last sentence. The import of this was that things started to happen fast circa 4,000 ybp, give or take a confidence interval the formula estimated at 1,000 years. I realized this was upstream of S21 and S116 but ignored that because of the happening fast aspect. This produces a set of Y-DNA dating that seems to fall into an era when a number of major archaelogical changes also occurred, again with confidence intervals taken into account.

I understand the MRCAs for S21 and S116 occurred shortly after the Nodeman, but why does that guarantee that they started to expand right after the MRCA? / Tom

> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:37:26 -0600
> Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas Gull"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 12:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] What shall R1b1c call themselves now?
>
>
>>
>> On the one hand, we have a number of documented cultures which seem
>> possible as candidates, listed by David in his last message. Given Ken's
>> 4000 ybp +/- 1000 years for a TMRCA, David seems to have listed a number
>> of possibilities which can't be ruled out today. Also note that the TMRCA
>> can occur many generations before a significant expansion.
>
>
> You misunderstand the most significant TMRCA measurement of 4000 years; it
> was to a Nodeman (MRCA) ancestral to S116 and S21. S21 and S116 can not be
> older than that Nodeman.
>
> That Nodeman need not have given the age for S21 and S116; those latter
> could be theoretically much younger. But in fact when attempts are made to
> age them separately they turn out to be about as old as their joint MRCA,
> particularly the latter. That's what is meant by things happening fast.
>
> Nodeman is not necessarily an expansion. But the expansions of S21 and S116
> came shortly after the Nodeman.
>
>
>
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