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From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] J Haplogroup Project report:J2a1e/ J2a8bigger thanwasthought
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:14:14 -0600
References: <BAY111-DAV1222C0002C0BCF8D27E3D3B1460@phx.gbl> <003201c920c6$fca7f950$6400a8c0@Ken1><48DE7DCD.9070505@sbcglobal.net><f3f05ce80809271258q1482f99bqaa935879b78705ac@mail.gmail.com> <48DE94AA.1090409@sbcglobal.net><009d01c920e0$3ba25fb0$6400a8c0@Ken1><48DE9EC7.8000305@sbcglobal.net>


You should not have much difference between first and second GABw if you
have put the correct G estimate into the iteration process of the
spreadsheet.

What the lower iteration process is doing is evaluating the downweighting of
the fast markers which unfortunately depends on G, which is the thing you
are trying to estimate. So the solution by iteration can not be avoided.

Fast markers are somewhat downweighted because marker variance of variance
grows nonlinearly with mutation rate.

Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alfred A. Aburto Jr." <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] J Haplogroup Project report: J2a1e/ J2a8bigger
thanwasthought


> Ken,
> I just did the J1/J2 using 67 markers. J1 had 93 samples and J2 had 226
> samples.
> The J1 age was 245.5 generations ==> 7365 years ago @ 30 years per
> generation.
> The J2 age was 340.4 generations ==> 10212 years ago @ 30 years per
> generation.
> The J1/J2 age was 552.2 generations. There were two GABw answers , the
> first was 649.5 generations. I think it is the second I should use
> (GABw = 552.2 generations ==> 16566 years ago).
>
> MRCA J1/J2 = 552.2 generations...
> MRCA J2a/J2b = 749.7 generations...
>
> I threw out anything that looked like an outlier (the nulls at DYS449 in
> J1 were the worst --- if you left them in it gave an age for J1 much
> older than J2!).
>
> My data are completely referenced. Let me know Ken and I will send.
> Al
>
> > Ken Nordtvedt wrote:
>> I checked my GD distances between founders, and indeed J2a/J2b GD
>> implying a
>> node which clashes in location with a J2/J1 node location results. I'm
>> flying a little blind here, of course, because I use other peoples'
>> haplotype collections or founding (modal) haplotypes on faith.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Alfred A. Aburto Jr." <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2008 2:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DNA] J Haplogroup Project report: J2a1e / J2a8bigger
>> thanwasthought
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> This is great! I thought Ken would ask about J1/J2 so I thought I'd
>>> better do that too :-). I'll have those results here shortly.
>>> With J2a/J2b I had 292.2 (J2a) and 206.0 (J2b) generations and the
>>> interclade age was 749.7 generations ...
>>> Al
>>>
>
>
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