GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-11 > 1226254800


From: "R. Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2008 13:20:00 -0500
References: <004101c94281$ad13f330$0201a8c0@Richard><e2f96c1b0811090825x43f8b8d0vb01a901afd8f465@mail.gmail.com><ea3bd9560811090828l54f35083kb3930e94d513bf00@mail.gmail.com><003201c94289$a0368490$6400a8c0@Ken1><ea3bd9560811090845h5a7af7e6t27e325ef732035de@mail.gmail.com><00a201c9428b$b6fa8ad0$0201a8c0@Richard><ea3bd9560811090858v2668f4f7s965a513ba09e5ec8@mail.gmail.com><00c501c9428e$0f09f5b0$0201a8c0@Richard> <000a01c9428e$dcef9d90$6400a8c0@Ken1><00d901c94291$9ce9d0f0$0201a8c0@Richard><ea3bd9560811091004i50d90064v8bfddf40896b91b4@mail.gmail.com>


Here is something else I noticed in your post: not only have you made up
your mind about L21, you've already prepared explanations for any result
that seems to contradict what you believe, and that for a brand new SNP with
but a handful of continental results thus far, at least four of which are
L21+!

I recall it wasn't too long ago you were saying M269 was "it' for most of
us, the poor, sorry asterisk guys who weren't lucky enough to be U106+ or
U152+. You had written us off as "aborigines" back then.

Now any continental L21+ can be explained by "migrations of Britons"!

Oi weh!

Rich

How much
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Faux" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66


It appears at this point to be a Britain - Ireland only SNP. I don't care
if the ususal suspects interpret this as "jumping the gun". Data is data.
I am free to use what knowledge I have to add meaning (interpret) the
patterns I see. If there are just a few L21+ on the Continent these can
easily be explained by historical references (let alone what might have gone
on before the Romans and Greeks took an interest).

As I have said before, just looking at the 5th century onward, there were
migrations of Britons to Brittany, Galicia in Spain, the Seine Valley,
Frisia, and Thuringia in central Germany. Unless there is a cluster in say
Hungary then it will be most parsimonious to look to historical movements to
explain L21 on the Continent.

I guess if I was you I would be rejoicing since you have a very strong
possible link to the southwest part of England via a very close haplotype
match. To my way of thinking this finding of L21+ strongly supports an
origin in England (I am not sure of the distribution of your surname but
would guess that SW England is within the perimeter).

David K. Faux.


On 11/9/08, R. Stevens <> wrote:
>
> Are you that convinced L21 is of entirely British origin?
>
> I mean, I would be glad if that were true, since it would narrow down my
> genealogical quest considerably.
>
> But L21 is a brand new discovery, and, despite the overwhelming prevalence
> of people of British Isles descent in genetic genealogy, we already have
> two
> Germans (Krueger and Krahn), a Norwegian (Igland) and an unknown Italian
> (our P66+ guy) who are L21+.
>
> Can we write all of them off as the products of "British adventures"?
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 12:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
>
>
> Ah, the power of statistics --- it saves us from unbounded speculations.
> The L21+ NPE could have happened in Boston --- there's the little Italy
> neighborhood on the NW side, and their's the Irish South Boston --- and
> the
> MTA running between them. Boston is not very large.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R. Stevens" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 10:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
>
>
> Practically the same sort of thing could be said of any one specific
> sample.
> It isn't P66 we're concerned with really; it's L21. It doesn't appear to
> be
> "erratic" or private.
>
> An Italian L21+ could be significant . . . could be. I don't assume
> anything
> about it, especially since we know so little, but I am also not prepared
> to
> dismiss it as the "love child" of some of WWII GI.
>
> Rich
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Faux" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
>
>
> The put a note or reality into all of this there were hundreds of
> thousands
> of Australain, New Zeland, Canadian, Americans and so on at Monte Casino
> and
> all over the Italian Peninsual during WWII. P66 is a definite "erratic"
> or
> "outlyer" and little should be made of this sample knowing nothing of the
> genealogy of the participant.
>
> David K. Faux.
>
>
> On 11/9/08, R. Stevens <> wrote:
> >
> > Ah! That is helpful. So apparently the P66+ guy is Italian or of Italian
> > descent. Wish we knew who he was and where in Italy his y ancestor came
> > from.
> >
> > So it is likely then that there is at least one Italian L21+.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Faux" <>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 11:45 AM
> > Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
> >
> >
> > Yes, you were indeed involved Ken :-)
> >
> > I checked my e-mail via the search feature and found out where I came up
> > with the idea that P66 was from an Italian sample. A customer had
> > e-mailed
> > Bennett Greenspan and here follows the reply:
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> >
> >
> >
> > Lots will be happening in the next year on R1b and I'd personally
> > suggest
> > that you NOT test our panel just for one marker. BTW P66+ has been
> > found
> > only in Italy so far, so it could represent people who were not in the
> > Spanish refugee, but south of the Alps instead.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Bennett Greenspan
> >
> > President
> > David K. Faux/
> >
> >
> > On 11/9/08, Ken Nordtvedt <> wrote:
> > >
> > > That may have been me. I do remember getting a P66 sample but then a
> > > lab
> > > running out of the tiny quantity of material or finding it inadequate
> in
> > > some way to complete the requested tests. I was to split the cost
> > > with
> > > another interested person.
> > > So long, long ago. I'm sort of glad P66 is still private, otherwise
> the
> > > failure of that whole enterprise would be even more disappointing.
> > > Maybe
> > > one of my email files can shed light on the history?
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Faux" <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 9:28 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and P66
> > >
> > >
> > > Virtually nothing. Perhaps the person who obtained the sample for EA
> > > will
> > > know. He monitors this List.
> > >
> > > David K. Faux.
> > >
> > >
> > > On 11/9/08, Robert Tarín <> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So what do we know about the origin of this P66?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 9, 2008 at 10:22 AM, David Faux <>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I am embarassed to say that the linking of P66 and Italy came from
> > > > > me
> > > > > and
> > > > > dates back to the time that EA tested the sample for STRs. It is
> > > > strictly
> > > > > hearsay and should never have been "etched in stone".
> > > > >
> > > > > David K. Faux.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On 11/9/08, R. Stevens <> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I recall correctly, P66 is probably a private SNP, found in
> one
> > > > family
> > > > > > of Italian(?) descent. The ISOGG R tree shows P66 as downstream
> of
> > > > > > L21.
> > > > > Do
> > > > > > we have a confirmed Italian L21+ then? Or am I way off?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I tried searching for info on P66, but it doesn't seem to be
> > readily
> > > > > > available.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Rich
> >
>
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