Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-11 > 1227928334

From: "David Faux" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Can anyone top this - R1b1b2a1b4c1
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2008 19:12:14 -0800
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In-Reply-To: <>

I have enlisted a team of for example "super tech savy" newly minted
"R1b1c10" via 23andme and we will work on some maps and other displays to
show where concentrations are to be found. They seem to have some very
innovative ideas that should bear fruit soon.

If you are asking me to give my hunch I can do that. First though it is
important to note that U152, L2+, L20- is the most frequently found motif in
R-U152 and thus the most difficult to pin down since it is found all across
R-U152 territory. However as will be seen in a map generated by one of "the
lads", the epicenter of R-U152 is clearly at the Rhine - Danube junction.
This is also where the largest percentage of R-U152* (ancestral) is found.
I expect that the L2 mutation happened pretty close by and radiated north
and south with the Rhine River being a superhighway for U152, but also east
and west as well as across the Alps during the Hallstatt and La Tene
migrations (some were likely already in Italy). I would not be surprised to
learn that your ancestors were among the Hallstatt group largely south of
the Danube or the La Tene group of the Palatine, Mosel, Triers area.
Hopefully the German church books are going to be digitized and you can find
the precise village where your ancestors lived. For many Germans I expect
that despite a lot of shuffling around that they may have remained fairly
close to their point of origin. Anyway nothing more than an opinion born of
staring for hours on end at the database and google map and asking myself
the same question - then going to the archaeological and historical sources
(for a start) to see what makes most sense.

In a few rare cases the haplotype will help. For example there is the well
established Ashkenazi cluster with DYS385a,b=14,14 and DYS492=14 scattered
all over Eastern Europe but which is also found in Baden - Wurttemberg, and
the Southern USA. Also there is the 11,17 /14 motif that is found in an
Italian from Naples and a fellow whose pedigree traces to East Anglia. For
a number of reasons I see the common denominator being the perambulating
Boii tribe. I don't know about your 11,16 / 12 motif whether this will form
a meaningful haplotype cluster with others. I guess success in this
endeavor depends, surprise, on collecting a larger and more representative
sample. We are really just starting to crack the nut open thanks to the
discoveries via 23andme.

David K. Faux.

On 11/28/08, Charles <> wrote:
> David,
> Given that I'm S28+, and likely S139+ per your analysis of my haplotype,
> and
> proven to be S144- per the message from EA tonight ... where do you think
> that
> puts me in the tribal migration scene and geography of south central
> Europe, in
> your opinion?
> Charles
> David Faux wrote:
> > Charles:
> >
> > Yes, as far as L20/S144 goes there are two East Anglians (one being me
> via
> > my Grandfather Faux), a fellow from the Italian Lake District and a chap
> > from near Bourges France (Bituriges Cubi Celtic territory). Sounds an
> awful
> > lot like Livy's description of the first migration circa 600 BC where
> king
> > Ambigatus of the Bituriges sent his two sister's sons on a mission to
> divest
> > the tribe of excess population. Segovesus went to the Hercynian forest
> of
> > Southern Germany / Czech Republic and Bellovesus went to the Italian Lake
> > District (Golesecca / Insubres territory). Gee, I wonder who was uncle's
> > favorite.
> >
> > My guess is that since you are DYS492=12 then you have about a 90% chance
> of
> > being L2/S139+. It seems to be something of a problem child marker
> though,
> > whether tested via chip technology or via direct sequencing. Hope this
> is
> > overcome since most people don't know their L2 status yet. L20 seems to
> be
> > a more reliable marker at this point and a robust result will likely be
> had
> > on the first take.
> >
> > David K. Faux.

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