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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-12 > 1228160889


From: "Lancaster-Boon" <>
Subject: [DNA] TRMCA for R1b1
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 20:48:09 +0100


I don't wish to say that we now know anything for sure, but the line of
reasoning in this reply seems flawed. If we count the number of clades as
old as haplogroup I there are not many. There must have been many more male
lines at the time when haplogroup I came into existence.

I think we can say with a lot of confidence that most clades which existed
when I came into existence no longer exist. IJ* is very rare if it exists
any more, just to name an example. Secondly they did not just disappear -
they were replaced. Replacement can really mess up nice patterns and create
"strong clines".

Therefore seeing no signs of I outside of Europe can not really be used to
conclude anything?

Best Regards
Andrew


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From: "Dienekes Pontikos" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] TRMCA for R1b1
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 13:34:16 +0200
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

> Who was the Cro-Magnon man? I don't know either, but a best guess is
> that it may very well be HG I or HG IJ. It just doesn't seem likely
> to be R1 or, most probably not some younger descendant. On the other
> hand, I is fairly widely dispersed in Europe and is more diverse in
> most of Europe as compared to R1... meaning I is relatively older in
> Europe.
>

I is less widespread in Europe than R1. Moreover, it is clear that its
widespread present-day distribution is a fairly recent phenomenon;
there are two lines of evidence for this: (i) the strong clines its
major subclades exhibit, and (ii) the fact that it is so
European-constrained; greater antiquity allows for greater spillage
into neighboring regions.


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