Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2008-12 > 1228292653

From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] TRMCA for R1b1
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 00:25:32 -0800
In-Reply-To: <>

Dear All,
I find it interesting that the earliest known ancestor of many of
the people in Vincent Vizachero's FTDNA R1b1 (P25*) project (see lived in Eastern Europe,
Russia, or Ukraine. There seem to be relatively few people in this project
whose ancestors were from Western Europe. I think this is particularly
enlightening given that earliest known ancestors of FTDNA project
participants are much more likely to be from Western Europe than from
Eastern Europe, Russia, or Ukraine. This doesn't prove that the M269 and
M73 mutations occurred in Eastern Europe, Russia, or Ukraine, but it
certainly supports the theory that M269 spread across Europe from east to
west rather than from west to east.
Also note that a significant portion of the M73+ haplotypes in
Vincent Vizachero's FTDNA project at are from Central Asia. Only 5 of
the 12 pins placed on the map for that project are from Europe. This fact
would also favor the theory that the M73 mutation first appeared in Central
Asia rather than in Europe, particularly given the relative scarcity of M73+
haplotypes from Europe. If M73 first appeared in Central Asia then it would
seem reasonable to believe that M269 also likely first appeared in Central
Asia or somewhere in that vicinity. In any case, it seems more likely to me
that M269 first appeared in Eastern Europe or Asia than that it first
appeared in Western Europe. Vince, can you comment as to the location of
the earliest known ancestors in Cluster A in the M73 project? This is the
oldest of the clusters in the project. Were the earliest known ancestors of
the people in Cluster A from Central Asia?
I don't think that the fact that STR variance is not substantially
higher in Turkey than it is in European locations does anything to disprove
the theory that M269 appeared in Eastern Europe before it appeared in
Western Europe. If we assume that M269 first appeared in Asia (that is a
big if), it is reasonable to think that M269 could have reached Turkey from
the north rather than having have come from the East. If so, this would
help account for the fact that the variance isn't any higher in Turkey than
elsewhere in Europe.
If M269 first arrived in Europe with the LKB people (another big
if), M269 could have spread through Europe in a relatively short period of
time (1000-2000 years) resulting in Turkey and other regions of SE Europe
not having higher variances than the rest of Europe. The LKB people never
were in Turkey in the first place per the map on p. 105 of Barry Cunliffe's
book Europe Between the Oceans. The earliest LKB people appeared in Eastern
Does anyone know if there is a project for M269* haplotypes?
Charles Kerchner has a R1b project at There are about 30 haplotypes in
the SNP tested group that are listed as R1b1b2, which I suspect may be
negative for all downstream SNPs that FTDNA tests for in their R1b deep
subclade test. Charles, can you confirm this?

Tim Janzen

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Dienekes Pontikos
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] TRMCA for R1b1

Sicily was used as an example of a European location where the STR
variance is similar to that found among Anatolian Turks. The Balkans
are another location where this is the case.

Let's summarize:

- TMRCAs do not determine arrival times
- STR variance is not substantially higher in Turkey than it is in
European locations.

Conclusion: there is no data to back up the theory that R-M269 arrived
to Europe from Turkey, or that it did so in the Neolithic.

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