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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-01 > 1232280888


From: Vincent Vizachero <>
Subject: [DNA] R-ht35 Project: L23, L49, L51
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 07:14:48 -0500


When the ht35 project was started, a little over a year ago, our
principal goal was to find a marker (any marker) that could
differentiate ht35 from the massive western European R1b1c monolith.
We started with a few clues about representative STR haplotypes
(mainly DYS393 and DYS461) and not much else.

A lot has happened in the past year. R1b1c is now R1b1b2, and we have
more markers within ht35 than I can easily keep up with. Not counting
synonyms, in the last year we discovered L23, L49, L11, L51, L52,
P310, P311 and P312 (not to mention the previously known U106) and
expanded our STR profile to include DYF385 and DYF411.

http://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

In an effort to reflect this new reality, I have reorganized the
display of Y results on our project page yet again.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/ht35ne...ection=yresults

Broadly speaking, I have created three "supergroups".

"A" includes folks who have either tested all the available markers,
or tested enough that results for all the markers can be inferred.
Since some of the newest SNPs are not yet offered by FTDNA everyone in
A1, A2, and A3 have been tested by 23andMe. Group A4 includes people
who have tested at FTDNA to be positive for L11, P310, and/or P311 and
therefore are also presumed positive for L23, L49, L11, L51, and L52.
I am still battling with FTDNA over some erroneous and/or potentially
contradictory results within A4, but for now I consider everyone in A1
- A4 to be completely SNP tested: no need for further tests unless and
until something new develops.

"B" includes people who have tested some or all of the relevant SNPs.
Once FTDNA begins offering L23, L49, L11, L51, and L52 I will strongly
encourage people in B1, B2 and B3 to upgrade their SNP results.

"C" includes people who turned out to be P312+ or U106+, and so are
probably not ht35 at all.

Some of the new SNPs do have very interesting patterns.

The two guys in A1 (who are L23- and L49-) both have DYS426=11, while
no one in A2, A3, or A4 have that result. As a consequence, I think
that we can expect that most members of the project with DYS426=11
will eventually fall into that L23- L49- camp. Both members of the A1
group also have DYF411=9,11. No one in A2, A3, or A4 have that
result: there is a 1:1 correspondence between DYS426=11 and
DYF411=9,11 at the moment.

The one guy in A3 (who is L23+ L49+ L51+ L11- L52- P310- P311-) has
DYS426=13, while no one in A1, A2, or A4 has that result. As a
consequence, I think we can expect that most members of the project
with DYS426=13 will eventually fall into that L23+ L51+ P311- camp.

Our lone A3 guy also has an unique value of DYF411=9,12 but that is
not shared by all DYS426=13 haplotypes so I'm not sure how this clade
will play out yet. 21 members of the project have results for DYF411
and most common allele is 11,11. No one with DYF411=11,11 has
DYS426=11: they all have DYS426=12 or 13.

I am not currently encouraging ht35 project members to test DYF411, by
the way: I am hopeful that FTDNA and/or EA will commercialize the
new upstream SNPs soon so people can test them directly. People who
are L11- P310- P311- will find L23, L49, and L51 to be very
informative, I expect.

Vince

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