GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-03 > 1236311859


From: adam bradford <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Into Netherlands?
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:57:39 -0500
References: <002601c99c32$d6152e60$6400a8c0@Ken1><COL105-W82B75EFC464AF6A230A70185A70@phx.gbl><008301c99c6e$ba9851d0$6400a8c0@Ken1>
In-Reply-To: <008301c99c6e$ba9851d0$6400a8c0@Ken1>


Ken,

I have found "Barbarian Migrations and the Roman West 376-568", by Guy
Halsall, to be a good resource for the late Empire/age of migrations
period. Here's what he has to say about the region In the 4th century:

"At the mouth of the Rhine, and along that river as far as Worms, lived the
Franks, the 'Fierce People', a confederacy first mentioned in the third
century, apparently including earlier tribes like the Chamavi, Chattoari,
Sicambri, Bructuari and (probably) the Chatti. . . .

"Behind the Franks, along the North Sea coast of the modern northern
Netherlands, Germany and Denmark lived the people the Romans referred to as
'Saxons', first recorded, once again, in the third-century troubles. These
probably included, at least as far as the Romans were concerned or cared,
the Jutes and 'Angli' recorded earlier as Eudoses and Anglii by Tacitus and
who re-emerged, of course, in the post-imperial history of Britain.
Probably amongst the Saxons' ranks were the Frisians, also attested during
the early Empire but unnoticed in written sources between then and the early
Middle Ages, and the Heruli of Jutland."

In the fifth century, speaking of northwest Germany, he discusses the area's
depopulation (already referenced in this thread): "The desertion of
settlements in this region is a matter of important debate, relating to the
migration of the inhabitants of the region to Britain in the fifth century.
. . . The picture is also suggested both in the Elbe-Weser region and in
Schleswig-Holstein as well as along the Frisian coast. Nor does the
evidence come solely from settlement archaeology. Were that the case it
would be possible to argue that settlements had simply moved elsewhere.
Palaeobotanical evidence suggests a reduction in the extent of exploited
land and an upsurge in reforestation. This should imply some sort of serious
population decline."

Yet, in the Merovingian period (from the 6th century), a century after the
depopulation, the neighbors of the Franks to the northeast were . . . the
Frisians and the Saxons, just as in the 4th century. I have never seen any
claims of any influx to replace the previous inhabitants. It appears to
have been more of a depopulation followed by indigenous growth.

If I may confuse the matter a bit further, there is some evidence that
suggests a back migration of Anglo-Saxons to Germany in the 6th century.
I'm not sure how significant, probably not much so. I found this account in
the first chapter of Frank Stenton's excellent work on Anglo-Saxon
England. First he cites Procopius, discussing the wars of Justinian
against the Goths in Italy. Procopius stated that Britain was inhabited by
3 races - the Angiloi, Frissones, and Britons, each ruled by its own king,
and that each race was so prolific that it sent large numbers of individuals
every year to the Franks, who planted them in unpopulated regions of its
territory. The king of the Franks, through these developments, was
attempting to lay a claim to Britain before the Emperor, and he apparently
included some of these Angiloi in an embassy to Constantinople to try to
make good his claim. Stenton plausibly argues that Procopius' source for
this was a first-hand account from Franks at the court of Constantinople.
Procopius further appears to be in accord with a tradition independently set
down by a monk of Fulda in 865 asserting that the ancestors of the
continental Saxons actually sprang from the Angli of Britain. The tradition
has it that they were unable to find land for settlement in Britain and
crossed to Germany (landing at Cuxhaven) in the time when Theuderich, king
of the Franks, was at war with the Thuringians. After the Thuringian war,
Theuderich supposedly gave them land in Thuringian territory. There is
apparently also some evidence that a language closely related to Old English
was once spoiken in the districts assigned to the immigrants, such as the
name of the canton Engilin (bewteen the Unstrut and Saale rivers), in
Thuringia. The fact that this tradition generally agrees with what
Procopius was told by the Franks indicates the agreement of two independent
sources, which is why Stenton gives it some weight. The war against the
Thuringians dates to 531 AD. The reign of Theudebert (who would have
boasted of his claim to rule Britain before the emperor) was just after
this, around 534-548 AD. Stenton posited that the advance of settlement of
the various Anglo-Saxon invaders may have been seriously checked by the
battle of Mons Badonicus (about 500 AD), which would account for the back
migration a few decades later due to lack of opportunity for expansion in
Britain.

- Adam

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Ken Nordtvedt <>wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Daniel Jenkins" <>
>
> Maybe your question could be better defined as to what you are thinking ?
>
>
> I1-AS1 is a huge and relatively young clade. Just taking 150 of its
> haplotypes, 100 maybe are British Isles, 40 of them German, and 20 of them
> from the Low countries.
>
> The British subpopulation looks as old as or older than the continental
> ones. All these subpopulations seemed to have their rapid expansion from
> founders in the late days of the Roman empire.
>
> I thought those clues might tell us who they were?
> - Show quoted text -
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>

This thread: