Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-05 > 1243653568

From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:19:28 -0300
References: <><A540FBA8E36A45D98C3542B9925C966C@DadPC><D8ABB0BCF28148F4B30DB7924010A469@RichardNW><8436110BE83A4381A3D911976CEE388B@DadPC><00e701c9e09c$e56c74a0$6400a8c0@Ken1><F2FF9463B36B4806B096A777CFBF9AC7@DadPC><2433EAC81B0D45DD84DF19817C8C7129@RichardNW>
In-Reply-To: <2433EAC81B0D45DD84DF19817C8C7129@RichardNW>

Which was a really nothing to add that changes
the picture in western Europe. They were
talking about three countries Germany, Denmark,
and Poland. Can't one see the absurb argument
here? This is supposed to indicate that the existing
population was driven to such low levels that
R-M269 flowed in from the east or southeast
to pretty much change the DNA landscape to
make R-M269 dominant in western Europe. They
also say these population levels remained low
for the next 1500 years. So this eastern flow
of DNA is supposed to completely change the
DNA landscape without changing the population
numbers up.

Didn't you naysayers mix colors when you were kids?
If you evenly mix red and yellow you get orange
not red or yellow. If you have more red than yellow
than or get a reddish orange not a yellowish orange
(that would take more yellow than red). So here we
are today with a whole lot of R-M269 descendants in
western Europe. If they represent the color red then
the mix had to have been a whole lot of red over the
years and little of yellow (or shades in between). So either
the whole lot of red was there to begin with or
the people who came who almost all red and there
were way more of them. Where east, west, north,
or south, of western Europe with a whole lot of
red. Nowhere!!! To the east you see R1as dominate
in parts Is in others, Ns in others, Js in others, and Es in
others. Where they meet in the near east, and central Asia
you see good mixes which is what you would
expect when dominant populations mix proportionally.

The only conclusions one can make is that 1) R-M269,
given its age, was dominant in western Europe to begin with
(ie. after the last glacial maximum/younger dryas) or 2) it
came from an area where it completely dominated, left
there, and wiped out the existing population in all of western
Europe. Since there is no archaeological to indicate all
western populations were wiped out the only logical choice
is one.

Furthermore, how do you explain R-P25* in Cameroon
if R-M343 was in central Asia? You can't. You can
when you consider R-M343 in the Iberian peninsula do
some exploring.

I don't have a problem with some R-269 descendants
moving from southeast to northwest. I say they were
pushed along by the Is who I said were the main invaders.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stevens" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results

>A few months back on this list we discussed a report by Shennan and
> Edinborough that concluded there was a drastic reduction in the population
> of Northern Europe at the end of the Mesolithic Period and again at the
> end
> of the LBK during the Neolithic.
> If you follow the R1b1b2 SNP trail staked out by the work of Vince
> Vizachero
> you will see the movement was from SE to NW.
> Rich
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 19:35
> Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
>> Cut to the chase please. Obviously I am
>> saying that, given the age of M269, I don't
>> think there is evidence of almost complete
>> population replacement in parts of western
>> Europe so the flow of genes had to be
>> west to east. This is supported first by density
>> of R-M343 offspring in various places and
>> secondly by the archaeological record.
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
>> To: <>
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:34 PM
>> Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
>>>> That said, to go on record, I do believe R-M343
>>>> was the 'dominant' haplogroup in western Europe
>>>> following the Last Glacial Maximum.
>>>> How's that for getting off the fence?
>>>> Peter A. Kincaid
>>> Putting R-M343 in western Europe 10,000 years ago is indeed sticking
>>> your
>>> neck out.
>>> Let's look for the evidence step by step. What's the division of R1b...
>>> seen robustly today in western Europe upstream of the node between S21
>>> and
>>> P312?

This thread: