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From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 15:46:10 -0300
References: <7CCD3D13E3464039987EF0D889722C00@PC>
In-Reply-To: <7CCD3D13E3464039987EF0D889722C00@PC>


But these are a string of possibilities whereas it is a
certainty that the Portuguese, British, French and
German had a presence there. On the possibility side,
there is also a the claim by Herodotus that the Phoenicians
circumvented Africa with the apparent support of the Egyptians.
The Phoenicians are known to have been trading partners
with the Tartessians in Portugal who also likely got tin
from Britain. If they can travel so far north they can travel
so far south and with the Phoenicians could have planted
genes and cultural packages there. The sea route is more
plausible because the trail of R-P25* seems more coastal
than overland. Guinea-Bissau is almost equidistant to
Portugal from Cameroon. From a nautical point of view
one can argue resupply points.

Let me be clear in that I do believe R-M343 came to western
Europe from the east as mainly the first in. I am saying that
I think, given the age of R-M269, R-M269's offspring originated
in western Europe.

Peter

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lancaster-Boon" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 2:37 AM
Subject: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results


> From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
> Subject: Re: [DNA] revised TMRCA calcuations for the R-L21 results
> Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:19:28 -0300
> References:
> <><A540FBA8E36A45
> ><><843611
> ><00e701c9e09c$e56c74a0$><F2FF9
> ><
> W>
> In-Reply-To: <>
>
>
> Furthermore, how do you explain R-P25* in Cameroon
> if R-M343 was in central Asia? You can't. You can
> when you consider R-M343 in the Iberian peninsula do
> some exploring.
> ===
>
> Peter
>
> 1. The R-P25* area in Africa is not closer to Iberia than to the Middle
> East, and nor is it known from archaeological or genetic or linguistic
> data
> to have any link to Iberia. It certainly shows strong genetic and
> linguistic
> and archaeological links to the Nile area, and in turn to the Middle East.
>
> * Archaeological discussions quite independent of genetics discussions,
> frequently go over such questions as the introduction of goat herding, the
> introduction of horse, and the introduction of iron working, into this
> area.
>
>
> * Linguists frequently discuss the fact that there is a branch of
> Afroasiatic in the area.
>
> ...so both the Linguists and the Archaeologists also sometimes seem
> surprised at how connected this region was to the Middle East. Presumably
> the Nile, and the early establishment of mobile herding lifestyles, played
> a
> role.
>
> 2. R-P25* is not common in Iberia. More generally, sibling and parent
> clades
> of M269 are not really common anywhere in Europe and are easier to find in
> the Middle East.
>
> 3. Comparison of the chances of Iberia and Central Asia presents a false
> choice. Immediately before R1b1b2 or its direct ancestor entered Europe it
> must have been somewhere near Europe. In the case of a Central Asian
> origin,
> this is obviously most likely to have been somewhere between Central Asia
> and the European area where R1b1b2 is common today. The Middle East would
> fit that bill.
>
> Best Regards
> Andrew


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