Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-06 > 1246173597

From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:19:57 -0700
In-Reply-To: <1BB41B7ACEDF4871AF44AC00E31E269C@DadPC>

Dear Peter,
You are certainly free to continue to hold to a belief that R-M343
descendants are not Neolithic invaders of Europe from Asia Minor. I, for
one, have been convinced for some time now (at least a year or so) that the
immediate ancestors of R-U106 and R-P312 came from somewhere in eastern
Europe or southwestern Asia. The evidence as I see it is overwhelming.
Perhaps, I should summarize it for you:
1. First of all, there is a striking paucity of R-P25*, R-P297*, R-M269*,
R-L23*, and R-51* haplotypes from people whose paternal ancestors lived in
western Europe. If R-M343* went through the LGM somewhere in western Europe
(such as Iberia), why are don't we find any significant remnant populations
of R-P25*, R-P297*, R-M269*, R-L23*, and R-51* (or for that matter R-M269+
L11-) in western Europe today?
2. The east to west gradient in the distribution of R-M343+ subhaplogroups
as nicely summarized by Vincent Vizachero in this recent message:
3. I think that the TMRCA estimates using the variance method that others
and I have presented on this list dating back over a year now overwhelmingly
suggest a TMRCA estimate for R-L11 that is inconsistent with R-L11 (or
R-M269 for that matter) having been present anywhere in the world during the
LGM. See
55, and
90 among many others. If you want some fresh TMRCA estimates using the
interclade method, here are some for the R-M269* subhaplogroups using the
data from Vince's project at

TMRCA for M269 (based on 7 L23- haplotypes and 34 L23+ haplotypes: 4544
years when using 67-haplotypes and 5105 years when using 37-marker

TMRCA for L23 (based on 15 L23+ L51- haplotypes and 19 L23+ L51+ haplotypes:
4579 years when using 67-haplotypes and 5160 years when using 37-marker

TMRCA for L51 (based on 7 L23+ L51+ L11- haplotypes and 12 L23+ L51+ L11+
haplotypes: 4450 years when using 67-haplotypes and 5410 years when using
37-marker haplotypes.

4. TMRCA estimates using the SNP counting method also suggest that the
R-M269 SNP almost certainly occurred less than 10,000 years ago and probably
occurred less than 6000 years ago. See
92 for background. While we don't have any high quality R-L20 complete Y
chromosome sequences to compare to the HUGO reference sequence, the
available data using the SNP counting method is consistent with the theory
that R-M269 was not present anywhere in the world during the LGM.
5. Archeological evidence. The above mentioned dates for R-M269 and its
subhaplogroups are consistent with a known movement of people from southwest
Asia into Europe. If the TMRCA estimates for R-M269 and its subhaplogroups
I have given above are somewhat lower than the true TMRCA for R-M269 then
R-M269 was likely a major factor in the early Neolithic expansion in Europe
(7000 BC to 5000 BC). However, if the TMRCA estimates for R-M269 and its
subhaplogroups I have given above are reasonably accurate, then R-M269 and
its subhaplogroups could have been a major contributor to the spread of the
Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture. Barry Cunliffe in his book Europe Between
the Oceans on p. 167 had this to say about this culture: "This somewhat
cumbersome piece of archeological terminology refers to a broad cultural
continuum recognizable across a vast area of northern Europe, stretching
from the Alpine Foreland to the vicinity of Oslo and from the Rhine valley
to the Ukraine in the region of Kiev, with its influence spreading much
further east through Russia to the Ural Mountains. The cultural continuum
originates around 2900 BC and lasts, little changed for about 500 years....
Most persistent has been the view that the culture represents an intrusion
by people migrating from the Pontic steppe region; some have argued that it
was by this means that the Indo-European language was introduced into
peninsular Europe." On p. 170 Cunliffe writes as follows: "Compelling
evidence for the westward movement of some steppe communities comes from
burials. In Pachidol, in northern Bulgaria, a pit-grave 5 m deep had been
set beneath a massive barrow 7 m high and 55 m in diameter.... The burial,
quite alien to the local burial tradition, closely resembles pit-graves from
the steppe.... Dating evidence for the movement is imprecise, but the
Plachidol burial dates to around 3000 BC."
6. Linguistic evidence. The Indo-European Languages obviously were spread
into Europe by some means. They may have spread into Europe by passive
diffusion, but it is also very reasonable to believe that this language
group was brought into Europe by a significant migration of a people group
who spoke Proto-Indo-European. A reasonable hypothesis is that people who
had a relatively high percentage of R-M269 and R1a migrated into Europe from
the east and were involved in the distribution of Proto-Indo-European
throughout Europe. On p. 81 of his book The Horse The Wheel and Language,
David Anthony estimates that Proto-Indo-European developed as a language
between 4500 BC and 2500 BC. This time frame would be consistent with the
expansion of the Corded Ware/Single Grave Culture into Europe and would also
be consistent with the TMRCA estimate for R-M269 mentioned above.

Tim Janzen

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Peter A. Kincaid
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:22 PM
Subject: Re:
[DNA]OurEuropeangeographicalblocksforlactosetoleranceonChromosome 2

Enough has been said by the likes of you who prefer the
notion that R-M343 descendants are neolithic invaders of
Europe from Asia Minor. Just because this notion is
repeated enough does not make it true. There is no
reason to not think R-M343 was in western Europe
during the Younger Dryas and descendants sprang
from there.


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