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From: "Richard Stevens" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 09:51:15 -0400


We've learned a lot since 2005, back when nearly everyone was saying the
same sorts of things, and when, as Tom Gull mentioned in that thread about
lactase persistence, almost everyone viewed "R1b" as an undifferentiated
mass that "must" have emerged from an Iberian "Ice Age refuge" merely
because there is a lot of "R1b" in Western Europe now.

Speaking of circularity, though, how about that "bottleneck" argument? It
really goes something like this: "R1b 'must' have emerged from the Iberian
Refuge after the last Ice Age, so it 'must' only 'look' like it didn't.
Therefore severe bottlenecking must have occurred in Iberia, which proves
that R1b emerged from the Iberian Refuge after the last Ice Age."

Here's something similar and hauntingly familiar: "R1b 'must' have emerged
from the Iberian Refuge after the last Ice Age, so TMRCA estimates based on
actual observed father-to-son mutation rates must be wrong. Therefore we'll
use a method that gets us an age for R1b that fits the Iberian Ice Age
scenario, which, of course, proves R1b emerged from the Iberian Refuge after
the last Ice Age."

Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A. Kincaid" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 17:46
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)


. . .

> I find the following excerpt appropriate:
>
> "it is difficult to see how it might be possible successfully to combine
> genetic or archaeological evidence with that of linguistics without
> risking the circularity often witnessed in the more naive work of
> human population geneticists [Clive Gamble et al. The Archaeological
> and Genetic Foundation of the European Population during the Late
> Glacial: Implications for 'Agricultural Thinking.' 2005].
>
> The conclusion of this paper was that it was time to "abandon the
> agricultural thinking of Childe in European prehistory."
>
> Lawrence G. Strauss added a commentary and was quite
> assertive in his opinion of the origin of today's western
> European population. He states "I have little doubt that
> a biological core of the modern human populations of
> northern France, the British Isles, the Low Countries,
> Switzerland, Germany, and Scandinavia has its Tardiglacial
> origins in the remnant refugial populations of the Soultrean
> in southern France and Iberia."
>
> Since R1b descendants dominate these areas, what
> other haplogroup could this core be?
>


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