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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-07 > 1246769497


From: Gary Felix <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:51:37 -0700 (PDT)


Mike,
I agree that it is important to keep up with the latest in human genetics and I am  fortunate enough to have access to all the latest papers and none support this recent migration except arrendi. Someone on this list said Jobling dismissed this paper out right.
I cite papers like the M153 paper which was published last year and recent books on climate change like 
After the Ice: A Global Human History 20,000-5000 BC (2006) or
Climate Change in Prehistory: The End of the Reign of Chaos (2008)

The recent discovery of the importance of Doggerland which was pre Diamond's comment about the importance of Southern England after the LGM in his book Guns Germs and Steel.

Oppenheimers book Origin of the British (2006) Even Wells comments made at the conference about Iberias divesity supported in his books among many other more recent books (see the Genealogy of Mexico Project page - not a complete listing though).

>This is not what I wanted to discern, but it is
>apparent to me that R-M269 haplotypes in Europe are very closely aggregated
>around the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype.
 
Even the recent snips support a convergence on doggerland which in my opiniion support the Paleo/Mesolithic migration from Iberia (P312) and North of the Black sea (U106). Why would the neolithic expand out of this area when the advantage to do so would have been gone 7 to 8K years ago.

>SNP trail shows a Southeast Europe to west
>and north movement.  That places the Iberian location as a lower odds origin
>for R-M269's explosive growth across Western Europe.

Your missing the fact that P312 is responsible for L21 and M153 which are its descendants. Your also missing the WAMH founder haplotype which predominates in its descendants and is most frequent in the Basque and your ignoring the Mtdna evidence as well. U106 does not have the WAMH as a founder.

Bottom line evidence for a recent migration of R1b is lacking beyond a TMRCA estimate which when done are all over the place and seem to change frequently. I am always reading books like Crawfords Anthropological Genetics (Published Dec.2006). I have been contesting TMRCA for interpreting ancient migrations for a few years now and R1b has always been about 6K years in these estimates for this length of time.

I am hopefull a more accurate calculation can come about with more data and a greater understanding of the processes effecting mutation rates but I'm afraid too much variance is lost on these ancient bottlenecks.

Gary
Mexico DNA Project Admin.
I-M223

______________________________________________

--- On Sat, 7/4/09, Michael Walsh <> wrote:

From: Michael Walsh <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
To:
Date: Saturday, July 4, 2009, 8:53 PM

Gary,

I felt as you did until I kept reading.   I assumed the Cavalli-Sforza,
Sykes, Oppenheimer, Wells books were right. I've read them.  I've read the
articles summarizing various studies.  I've also read the more recent books
from Cunliffe and Anthony as well as older books from Cunliffe and Hubert.

It takes time to write and publish books.  The findings in the new and fast
paced arena of genetics have outpaced the books and standard academia.  That
doesn't mean they are bad.  They are just behind.

At some point, one has to make discern from the old information and analysis
versus the current data.  This is not what I wanted to discern, but it is
apparent to me that R-M269 haplotypes in Europe are very closely aggregated
around the Western Atlantic Modal Haplotype.   No matter how one looks at
it, it is hard to escape the evidence that R-M269 folks in Europe have a
common ancestor no more than 5000-6000 years ago.

Is there a chance that R-M269's ancestor lived in the Iberian, Italian,
Balkans or Ukranian refugium during the Last Great Ice Age?  Yes.  I don't
know which, but we do know the SNP trail shows a Southeast Europe to west
and north movement.  That places the Iberian location as a lower odds origin
for R-M269's explosive growth across Western Europe.

Mike


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