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From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:18:07 -0700
In-Reply-To: <5cf61dfb0907060700s2c96a940y60a1e7448e661c97@mail.gmail.com>


Dear Mike,
You could be right that R-P312 didn't come west with the LBK culture
and that it instead came later with another culture. However, if it did
come west with the LBK culture and then there was a drastic population
reduction at the end of the LBK culture, it could have retreated to the
south (France or southern Germany) or to the west (England) where L21 may
have arisen and to Iberia where M167 ad M153 arose. Keep in mind that I
think it is also very possible that R-P312 somehow was brought from the
Balkans or that vicinity either by land (through northern Italy) or by sea
to France as part of the Impressed Wares culture, where M167 ad M153 arose.
R-P312 could have then re-expanded north later. A lot of this hinges on
getting a really accurate TMRCA estimate for R-P312. I don't think we are
there yet, but I think it is likely that R-P312 arose sometime between 5500
and 8000 years ago.
Sincerely,
Tim

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Michael Walsh
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 7:00 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] R1b Origins (was OurEuropeangeographicalblock. . .)

----> Tim Janzen said:
P-312 may arisen somewhere in southeastern Europe around 5500-6000 years
ago. P-312 was probably carried
west during the LBK Culture or during the Corded Ware culture. If my TMRCA
estimates are on the low side then it may have been part of the early LBK
expansion into Western Europe. If my TMRCA estimates are about right then
it could have come later in the LBK culture or with the Corded Ware culture.

----> My response as to R-P312:
1) Your R-P312's TMCRA estimates are a little late for the LBK expansion. I
know you've read Cunliffe. In "Europe between the Oceans" he describes that
LBK's great east to west sweep across Europe occurred 7500-6500 years ago.
Cunliffe felt the rapid spread of this culture had to bring a large number
of new peoples. The LBK is a bit early for the TMCRA of R-P312. Granted
the TMCRA estimate involve a range of time so the LBK is not ruled out as a
carrier for R-P312 but it is not in the prime expected timeframe.

2) R-P312's dispersion does not overlay over the LBK sweep across Central
Europe. Cunliffe's depiction of the geographical range of LBK's great sweep
spanned from Hungary & Serbia, west across to Czech Rep., Austria,
Poland,Germany and France up to the Seine River, but not west of there. The
LBK was not an Atlantic, southwestern Europe culture, which are hot areas
for R-P312.

My opinion is that the Bell Beaker culture overlays R-P312's expansion
pattern and timing better than LBK's.

Regards, Mike

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