GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-08 > 1251562830
Subject: Re: [DNA] Lactase persistance started about 7,500 years ago in central Europe
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 16:20:30 +0000 (UTC)
It is pity that two fine researchers talk pass each other.
My five cents to that talk "pass each other" :-)
1. Eastern Europe (including the Pontic Steppe and Caucasus) of course is not "Slavic" in its entirety,
however, nobody meant it literally. It is relatively "rich" in R1a1, though.
2. Slavs "spread most recently" only in linguistic sense (around the middle of the 1st millennium AD).
However, the comment below was hardly related to linguistics. R1a haplogroup went a long way from
about 20,000 ybp (in Asia, apparently, South Siberia) to around 12-15,000 ybp in Europe to 6-3,000 ybp
(and to the present time) back to Asia/Anatolia/India/Iran to 2,500 ybp back to Europe and then multiple
zigzags between Central/West/East Europe, particularly between a millennium of 500 BC to 500 AD,
including a fresh stream of R1a1 from the East to Scandinavia between 300 and 500 AD. Part of them
were future (linguistically) Slavs, but actual (ancestors of) Slavs in their DNA patterns. Some might like to call them
"Proto-Slavs", however, it does not matter. Many of their descendants live now in Eastern Europe and
>a very close genetic relationship between Russians and Poles, much higher than would be predicted by
3. This is puzzling statement. Poles are VERY close geographically to Russians, and even were in the past
in the same Russian empire. There was no Ukraine that time. This is not a political, but historical statement.
Now they are part of the same territory including Poland-Belarus-Ukraine-Russia. The R1a1 level is very similar
(R1a1 in Russia is diluted a bit by N1c in the North).
>Anyway, it remains for those who claim an eastern European origin for lactase persistence ...
4. Nobody has claimed it, as far as I am aware of. There were compelling statements a year or so back that
LP gene(s) were introduced into the (future) European population (and the Basques among them)
between 6-9,000 ybp either in Central Asia or in the Ural region or North of Caucasus. It seems that the latest
paper did not even mention that. If so, this is plain wrong. Alternatives should ALWAYS be considered.
>1) You assume that Eastern Europe (including the Pontic Steppe and Caucasus) necessarily equals "Slavic." False.
2) You then assume that the Slavs "spread most recently." Very recent R1a1 research may have proven that false.
Let's wait for publication.
3) The close genetic relationship between Poles and Russians that you cite is a excellent reason to seriously doubt the
LP statistics used by the paper's model.
4) You completely ignore research indicating LP's origin to be north of the Caucasus:
> Dienekes Pontikos
> I wouldn't ascribe too much importance to Slavic populations, as they are the ones that spread most recently
> A recent study, for example, found a very close genetic relationship between Russians and Poles, much higher
>than would be predicted by geography.
> Anyway, it remains for those who claim an eastern European origin for lactase persistence to come up with
>a competing model to the two that were recently published. So far, there is no real evidence for such an origin,
>except for some anecdotal speculation, but no real work showing that the "eastern European" origin theory results
>in a better fit to the observed distribution of the selected allele.
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