Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-08 > 1251640666

Subject: Re: [DNA] DNA Tribes supports Paleolithic Continuity "Theory"
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 13:57:46 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <>

Yes, their "theory" is full with fragments of "preconceived knowledge".

Again, those horse-riding "kurgans" invading Europe and carrying the IE language,

again statements which mix language (IE) with people "Indo-Europeans".  

One of those many fables in "population genetics" equates the "kurgan archaeological culture" (or a "horizon")

with the R1a1 tribe(s). Where on Earth is a ground for such an "idea"? Both time and place do not fit to R1a1 (see below).

They much better fit to R1b, for instance. Some 5,000 ybp R1a1 and R1b1 were migrating by opposite courses.

R1a1 were moving (then) to the East, R1b1 were moving to the (South) West. Maybe to the West as well, it is not clear

as yet.

R1a1 were on the Russian Plains and steppes from around 5,000 gradually moving East, formed Andronovo

archaeological culture ~4200-3000 ybp, and then migrated to India/Iran by ~3500 ybp. The whole North of

India has exactly the same "ancestral" R1a1 haplotypes as that in Poland-Ukraine-Lithiania-Russia. Why the

"Proto-Indo-Europeans" are "elusive", for God's sakes? What can be more clear? How R1b1 can even be considered as the

"Proto-Indo-Europeans" in this context, when they were moving to the Middle East, North Africa, and then to Iberia

and to Europe those times? Where was India on their route?

While the R1a1 were entering India (~3500 ybp), the R1b1 were entering Iberia. What "Proto-Indo (sic!)-Europeans"?

Surely, they (R1b1) became "Indo-Europeans" eventually, and even formed their Centum branch of the IE language,

while the R1a1 were busy working on their Satem branch in the East.

Now, an one more thought, regarding the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT). It is so fuzzy, that can be easily arranged in

many ways. How about this: R1a group has appeared (via the snip) in South Siberia ~20,000 ybp, migrated to Europe

arriving there some 12-15,000 ybp, settled in the Balkans (where else?), some 6,000 ybp moved around in Europe

and finally settled there ~4200-5000 ybp from the Atlantic to Scandinavia to the South of Europe, ~5500-5000 ybp

entered the Russian planes, from the Baltic to the Black Sea, and continued to carry its R1a1 language (and its dialects)

which we now call "Indo-European" because they (R1a1) brought it to India, finishing the language bridge between

Europe and India.

Does it fit the PCT theory? Why not? All the components are there. Is it what the creator of the PCT had in mind?

Apparently, not.

R1a1 came from Asia, after all. However, "matured" in Europe, whatever "matured" is here.

R1b1 also came from Asia. However, it is considered by many as the "European" haplogroup. I considered it as a

"kurgan" haplogroup as well, on its way some 7000 ybp at least.

For the record, I take objections that R1a1 is the "kurgan" and R1b1 is not ONLY in a form of DATA, not in a form of

references who said what and where. Now, some data: R1b1 among the ethnic Russians is 6900 years "old" while

R1a1 only 4800 years old, both plus-minus some 500 years. 6900 is the Kurgan times, while 4800 is too late for that.

In short, the materials you Lawrence have pointed at, is a collection of fantasies and fables, though portraits rather

accurately the conventional thinking of many linguists. Essentially, you have said the same thing.  


Anatole Klyosov   

From: "Lawrence Mayka" < >

>...DNA Tribes' pronouncement in favor of the Paleolithic Continuity "Theory":

As usual, the assumptions and methods essentially guaranteed the outcome.
DNA Tribes decided in advance that the autosomal DNA of _modern_ Europe
would best represent the DNA of ancient Proto-Indo-Europeans.

DNA Tribes apparently did not realize that it was thereby espousing a
"theory" which asserts that Proto-Indo-European is 35,000 years old:
We argue that the appearance of Indo-Europeans coincides with the first
regional settlement of Homo Sapiens Sapiens in the Middle/Upper Paleolithic,
and we propose a comprehensive, interdisciplinary framework for the
Indo-European origins, the Paleolithic Continuity Theory (PCT).

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