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Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-10 > 1254850872


From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-L21 vs. R-U152
Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2009 10:41:12 -0700
References: <ea3bd9560910060840oc210323j2f76bb1311725938@mail.gmail.com><1254846383.3710.2.camel@fru>
In-Reply-To: <1254846383.3710.2.camel@fru>


Didier,

You can check out Jacques' project where he has summarized the numbers of
each haplogroup found in his French Canadian study.

Also, Myres et al. (2007) included U106 (but not U152) and found relatively
little in their French sample. I would expect that what is there is largely
the legacy of the Franks and other Germanic "intruders" (e.g.,
Burgundians). Beligium seems to represent, from all data sources, the
dividing line between the Celtic and Germanic worlds 2000 years ago. I
would be very surprised not to see a gradient of declining U106 from east to
west - but that is really just a hypothesis until a larger and more
representative sample is available.

David K. Faux.

On Tue, Oct 6, 2009 at 9:26 AM, Didier Vernade <>wrote:

> Thank you David for the update. I am still wondering if U106 in this
> respect will come out in significant numbers in France relative to L21
> and U152. In other words : is the split P312 / U106 of any meaning in
> France ?
>
> Didier
>
> Davis Faux wrote :
> > I realize that the project of Jacques Beaugrand is primarily for /
> composed
> > of French Canadians (whose origins are largely from northern France), but
> > the results are interesting. L21 has only been "on the scene" for about
> a
> > year, whereas U152 was discovered about 5 years ago. There has been a
> > tremendous surge in the numbers of L21 to the extent that there are 26
> L21
> > and 24 U152 in Jacques' project. So it appears that over time we are
> likely
> > to see U152 relegated to a minority status even within the
> > R haplogroup category.
> >
> > What is apparent though is that others of French ancestry who have
> tested,
> > and are U152 or a subclade of same, are more commonly found near the
> Swiss
> > border, in Central France, along the Mediterranean Coast, and in Alsace -
> > Lorraine. There is nothing resembling a random sample in any of this so
> we
> > may have to wait for an academic study to be published (don't hold your
> > breath) to see a more accurate representation of the geographical
> patterns
> > of each haplogroup. None the less, it does appear that the hotspots are
> > unlikely to change. After 5 years of testing of thousands of Irish
> descent,
> > only a half dozen or so U152 have surfaced there, and all but one
> apparently
> > have roots in England probably traced to the "Plantation era". Despite
> far
> > fewer Swiss testing, the numbers here are off the charts. Add in nearby
> > areas of Italy, France and Germany and we have an apparent focal point
> (with
> > very high diversity) where the haplogroup spread largely through central
> and
> > southern tiers of Europe (but is found in Ukraine, Turkey, and
> Kazakhstan).
> > I wonder if L21 will turn up in any numbers in northern Poland and
> Germany
> > where we have yet to see a single U152 - and in essence be a mirror image
> to
> > U152.
> >
> > U152 in Sardinia and Southern Italy has yet to be fully explained.
> Cardial
> > - Impressed Ware people migrating via the southern coastal route in
> > Neolithic times. Slaves from Gaul - although this is unlikely to have
> any
> > link to Sardinia. Among the haplogroups of the time of the original
> Italic
> > - Celtic split. Who knows at this point.
> >
> > I suspect that there are substantially more L21 out there than U152,
> except
> > in pockets. If we could confirm that all or most of the R1b (M269) in
> > Sardinia is U152 this would certainly help to put forward a more
> databased
> > interpretation. I have failed to receive a reply from the author of the
> > recent study of Y-DNA in Sardinia (sent about a year ago).
> >
> > David K. Faux.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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