GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2009-10 > 1255433016
From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] R-L21 vs. R-U152
Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2009 11:23:36 +0000 (GMT)
I think first we have to establish if there really a gap in L21 between the Rhine and Norway. There is so much unresolved non-S21 R1b in places like Denmark that could be hiding a lot of L21. I understand that there are several Danish L21s that have never joined the L21 project. I have always had a feeling that there was a Celtic pocket in Denmark related to trading. There are several references that suggests pockets of Gauls or Celts in areas like Denmark and the Baltic. I just cant put my hands on it but there is a reference by a classical historian to a tribe around the Baltic who spoke a language describes as very like that of the Britons. I am not sure if it was a Danish island or the east Baltic area but it does suggest pockets of outlying Celts. I also have to say there are many many aspects of the Teutones and Cimbri that would make them much easier to interpret as outlying Celts than Germans. The tribal names seem
Celtic, the leaders names are Celtic, there is Celtic material found in their lands, classical historians describe them as Gaulish not as Germans etc etc. As L21 and S28 seem to have been high among the Gauls, any Celtic influence in the far north could easily have brought these clades. There was obviously the sea routes to the west and there was the Elbe route from central Europe towards Denmark, both were important lines of communication and trade throughout the Celtic period. Its a shame we do not have a very good handle on the nature of R1b clades at the other end of the Elbe route where there were Celtic tribes. It would be nice to test a good sample for L21 testing along the central European corridor of Czech Republic, Slovakia, Southern Poland, Austria where Celts/Gauls are indicated in archaeological and historical sources etc.
Isn't the lack of self testing in Austria strange? Unlike the other central European countries listed above, they are a wealthy western European country. This is a pity given that Hallstatt lies in Austria and that at least part of the country was Celtic. The same is true for the eastern part of south Germany away from the Rhine. Is this something to do with less immigration to America (and therefore less north Americans from there in the DNA hobby) from land locked areas? You also see this in France where the most central areas look under-sampled.
Slaving by the Norse during the Viking occupation of Ireland, an Iron Age event, is a more