Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266079268

From: Steven Bird <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ancient Haplogroup Distribution Maps and summaries
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 11:41:08 -0500
References: <001701caabf1$cafff300$60ffd900$>
In-Reply-To: <001701caabf1$cafff300$60ffd900$>

Hi Bryan,

The site is certainly much more substantial and detailed than the last time I saw it. :-) I will speak only to the E-V13 identifications, which are far more accurate this time. Others will undoubtedly wish to address their own particular baliwicks.

I am pleased to see a major revision in the distribution maps for E-V13, with the inclusion of some new descriptions of mesolithic/Neolithic transitional cultures in the Balkans, such as "Old Europe." This apparently is becoming the de facto term for the neolithic Vinca culture after a recent New York Times article (discussing this region) adopted the Gimbutas-originated term for the cultures originating within the Vardar-Morava river corridors and the parts of the Danube adjacent to the Velika Morava. I think that it is a big improvement over several other possible terms as it seems to avoid more modern ethnic associations with the ancient Balkan cultures. Let's all just agree to use it! ;-)

Most of the V13 revisions appear to be based on Battaglia et al 2008:

That is a good article and worth citing, IMO. In it, we see the systematic progress from Pericic 2005 to Battaglia in identifying the likely origins of V13 in Europe within the central Balkan region, with the oldest V13 populations extending northwest into Bosnia and Herzegovina from the central valley, which is the most populous today.

Concerning the new maps, I'm mainly bothered by the lack of specificity concerning the Bell Beaker/Megalithic culture and V13. It is true that V13 appears in western European populations at levels typically much less than 10%, but there is no evidence to support the notion that the Bell Beaker groups were the vector for its spread. Battaglia actually appears to associate its spread in western Europe with the Mediterranean coastal cultures, rather than with the more northern Bell Beaker groups. That is more than a quibble; it makes assumptions for which there is no firm evidence yet. It is very likely that the vector for the Med coast of France and Spain was different than the vector for Normandy and Belgium/Holland. It's not accurate to lump them together.

Having said that, it's a great improvement! Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

Steve Bird

Haplogroup Distribution Maps and summaries
> I attach a link to a site which purports to summarise ancient haplogroup
> distributions. It has been referenced and discussed a couple of years ago on
> this list with some considerable degree of negative criticism. Does the
> general view still stand that these are too full of spurious information to
> be credible or has the opinion changed? I realise that it would be nice if
> it were full annotated with references but it would perhaps then be
> challenging for some to wade through. There is a major demand for such
> graphics and summaries in the more popular hobby community like my local
> Genealogy Society DNA Working Group. Thanks...I will put my tin hat on now
> and go into my trench! Bryan

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