Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266092530

Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 15:22:10 EST

In a message dated 2/13/2010 12:52:05 P.M. Central Standard Time,

I was just looking into this. From Wikipedia:

Commonly referred to as Irish Type III, it is concentrated in central
western Ireland and associated with the Dál gCais kindred...

...also Dal Cais or the Dalcassians) were a dynastic group of related
septs located in northMunster who rose to political prominence in the
early medieval era in Ireland. They are desceded from Cormac Cas, or
Cas mac Conall Echlúath, hence the term "Dál", meaning "portion" or
"share" of Cas...

I wonder how the O'Loughlins of Burren in Clare with their Red Branch
pedigree fit into the Dal Cas genealogical scheme? They too are Irish Type III
or at least the available samples are. It seems the Irish Type III might
take in more than just the descendants of Cas. Or perhaps the pedigrees are
just so much genealogical fiction. There does seem to be some
geographical significance to the cluster.

The Dal Cais (Irish Type III) are connected to the Eoghanachta in the
pedigrees. These are thought to be Irish Type II but seldom discussed. Is
this just more genealogical fiction?

The latest Trinity college article (L2008) explored the subject.

"Although the question to be addressed here (evidence
of patrilineal kinship within the Eoganacht and Dal
Cais) is similar to that of the Uı´ Neill in the Northwest
of Ireland (Moore et al., 2006),"

"It is also incidentally evidence against
later claims that the Dal Cais and Eoganacht had a
shared founding ancestor; a claim widely dismissed as
politically motivated 10th century revisionism designed to
legitimize the rise in regional power of the Dal Cais over
the Eoganacht (Byrne, 2001)."


"Although many additional early medieval Irish population
units remain to be investigated, it seems clear that
there was no standard patrilineal kinship structure to
these entities. Thus, although the Uı Neill and Eoganacht
are often thought of as major contemporary rivals
from the North and South of the island respectively,
genetic evidence combined with surname information
suggest they were founded, established and perhaps lead
by different means and this may reflect wider differences
in organization of Irish tribal societies."

The same Trintiy study failed to detect a strong modal for the Irish Type
III in their samples. But as Dennis Wiright pointed out in his JOGG paper
they used only 17 markers which wasn't sufficient to establish the modal.

Anyone who wants to can read the Trinity article at this link:


You can find Dennis Wright's article here:

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