Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266146461

From: Margaret Jordan <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 11:21:01 +0000
References: <> <><18EE5D5D39DF4753935A38CD08C97E4B@elizabethod>
In-Reply-To: <18EE5D5D39DF4753935A38CD08C97E4B@elizabethod>

SNP testing is becoming very useful in sorting out the connections
within and between the the Irish surnames of the south of Ireland.
R1b1b2a1b5 (L21+) seems to be widespread and I would like to see more
Irish people with southern surnames determine their position in the
haplotree by doing SNP testing.

Below L21, is L226 the only other relevant SNP for us in the south of
Ireland? If it is mostly Dalcassian what about Eoganacht SNPS below
L21? Does anyone know of any useful ones?

Margaret Jordan
Ireland yDNA Project and O'Shea yDNA Project

Elizabeth O'Donoghue wrote:
> Dennis said:
> At the moment, Dalcassian is the best description for what we see in the DNA
> results, both STR and SNP and no doubt, some pedigree
> manipulation has taken place in the past to engineer a connection with
> powerful families.
> There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show the
> Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
> explained by the common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
> their clan leader's name to show their allegiance.
> -------------------------------
> I would add that there are collectively more non-Dalcassian names with the
> Irish Type III signature than Dalcassian. And those names connected to the
> O'Brien dynasty also contain many, if not more, haplotypes which are not the
> Dalcassian Irish Type III. This is similarly evident amidst the recognized
> Eoghanacht tribes in Munster, as well as the Connachta tribes of the north
> who have recorded descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages, where the most
> common O'Neill haplotype is not NWI.
> We had The O'Donoghue of the Glens (Irish Type II) tested for L226, and as
> Dennis explained, that lineage is negative for L226. Both he and The
> O'Brien have uncontested pedigrees in their respective tribes. According to
> the historical tracts, they are supposed to have been descended from
> brothers, living roughly around the time of Christ.
> Since there are still so many factors in choosing how to calculate an MRCA,
> from mutation rates, to counting mutations, to years per generation, to
> which markers to use in so calculating, I remain unconvinced of the level of
> accuracy of anyone's figures (please, no offense to anyone), but my opinion
> is that with such distinctively different haplotypes, let alone the presence
> of a defining SNP, I doubt that there is any common ancestor between the
> Eoghanacht and Dalcassians within the timeframe of their supposed common
> ancestor.
> Nevertheless, the historical name of Dalcassian is a valid one, regardless
> of its pedigree, and I agree with Dennis that it is an appropriate label to
> give the L226 subclade.
> Elizabeth
> -------------------------------
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