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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 14:05:07 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <27759819.3414861266155759824.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


L159.2 is found in southern Ireland. The haplotypes of your O'Shea Group 2 members suggest that they may be L159+. They might also benefit from DYS464X testing. Their haplotypes are similar to Leinster Cluster haplotypes, and the Leinster Cluster is not confined to the province of Leinster. Most members of the cluster receive a ccgg result on the DYS464X test which distinguishes them from most other R-L21 men. There are also some L159+ men within R-L21 whose haplotypes do not match the typical Leinster Cluster results, so L159 testing should be helpful outside the Leinster Cluster as well as inside it.

Another recently discovered R-L21 SNP is L69.4, which is not common, but seems to have a widespread distribution. The L159 and L69 SNPs are located in the same region of the Y, and the sequencing for them is the same, so if one of these SNP tests is ordered, we can hope that Thomas Krahn of FTDNA will notify us if the test for that SNP is negative, but the sequencing reveals that the man is positive for the other SNP.

The R-L21 WTY project is ongoing, so it's possible that there will be other SNPs of interest for R-L21 men to test as the WTY program continues.

Kirsten Saxe
R-L21 WTY Co-Administrator


----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Jordan" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:21:01 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated

SNP testing is becoming very useful in sorting out the connections
within and between the the Irish surnames of the south of Ireland.
R1b1b2a1b5 (L21+) seems to be widespread and I would like to see more
Irish people with southern surnames determine their position in the
haplotree by doing SNP testing.

Below L21, is L226 the only other relevant SNP for us in the south of
Ireland? If it is mostly Dalcassian what about Eoganacht SNPS below
L21? Does anyone know of any useful ones?

Margaret Jordan
Ireland yDNA Project and O'Shea yDNA Project

Elizabeth O'Donoghue wrote:
> Dennis said:
>
> At the moment, Dalcassian is the best description for what we see in the DNA
> results, both STR and SNP and no doubt, some pedigree
> manipulation has taken place in the past to engineer a connection with
> powerful families.
> There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show the
> Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
> explained by the common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
> their clan leader's name to show their allegiance.
>
> -------------------------------
>
> I would add that there are collectively more non-Dalcassian names with the
> Irish Type III signature than Dalcassian. And those names connected to the
> O'Brien dynasty also contain many, if not more, haplotypes which are not the
> Dalcassian Irish Type III. This is similarly evident amidst the recognized
> Eoghanacht tribes in Munster, as well as the Connachta tribes of the north
> who have recorded descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages, where the most
> common O'Neill haplotype is not NWI.
>
> We had The O'Donoghue of the Glens (Irish Type II) tested for L226, and as
> Dennis explained, that lineage is negative for L226. Both he and The
> O'Brien have uncontested pedigrees in their respective tribes. According to
> the historical tracts, they are supposed to have been descended from
> brothers, living roughly around the time of Christ.
>
> Since there are still so many factors in choosing how to calculate an MRCA,
> from mutation rates, to counting mutations, to years per generation, to
> which markers to use in so calculating, I remain unconvinced of the level of
> accuracy of anyone's figures (please, no offense to anyone), but my opinion
> is that with such distinctively different haplotypes, let alone the presence
> of a defining SNP, I doubt that there is any common ancestor between the
> Eoghanacht and Dalcassians within the timeframe of their supposed common
> ancestor.
>
> Nevertheless, the historical name of Dalcassian is a valid one, regardless
> of its pedigree, and I agree with Dennis that it is an appropriate label to
> give the L226 subclade.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
> -------------------------------
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