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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 15:59:02 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <4B781227.8060101@eircom.net>


Hi Margaret,

I do advise caution in the interpretation of SNP testing results. We don't have a lot of information on the age of the recently discovered SNPs, and some of them may even be unstable. L159 is one of those SNPs that is thought to be unstable, so it may be a mistake to assume that all L159+ R-L21 men share a common L159+ ancestor. Since many L159+ men are also ccgg on the DYS464X test, use of that test may be very helpful for sorting out different L159+ lines within R-L21. The administrators of the R-L159 project are using DYS464X test results to classify their project members.

Even if all L159+ men found within R-L21 do share a common ancestor, we don't know how long ago that ancestor lived, so it would be a mistake to assume that they share ancestry within the last one or two thousand years.

Here is a list of surnames of men within the Leinster Cluster that have L159+ test results:

Adams

Baldwin
Beatty and variants
Brock
Burns/Byrne

Carmack

Dillon (linked to both Ireland and southern England)
Dooley
Doty (linked to southern England?)
Downing (linked to southern England?)

Ferguson
Fitzpatrick
Flynn
Foley

Gaston

Jewett? (Cienfuegos NPE)
Jordan

Kavanagh/Kavanaugh

McDonald
McHale/McInvale
McLaughlin

Megehee/McGehee/Macgahye

Owen

Quilliam/Fitzwilliam

Robinson

Stephens

Welsh

We have some other lines in the project that don't have L159 results which may be of interest to you because they are associated with Cork:

Murphy
Quigley
Tyrry/Terry

We have a number of other lines in the project that have not done L159 testing, and the surnames and genealogies suggest that the cluster has expanded greatly within Leinster, but has also has been present outside Leinster. We don't know where the ancestors of the Leinster Cluster with the L159.2 and ccgg mutations lived.

You would probably also be interested in the following members of the R-L159 project:

O'Connor, kit N12172, whose most distant known ancestor was apparently born in southern Ireland in 1802
Manning, kit 145899, whose birthplace is not listed on the project's Y Results page

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-L159.2/default.aspx?section=yresults

Kirsten Saxe

----- Original Message -----
From: "Margaret Jordan" <>
To:
Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 10:09:27 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated

Hi Kristen.

We are currently doing Deep Clade testing in the O'Shea Project and we
are awaiting more results before coming to any major conclusions.
However, two out of three R1b1b2 groups appear to be L21+ while one
group may be R-106+ but we need more data to enable us to draw any
conclusions. We are keeping the history of the O'Shea Clan in mind as we
do this testing and will proceed with caution before we try to interpret it.

It is good to know that SNPs below L21 are being discovered. As a matter
of interest, which surnames in the Leinster Cluster are testing positive
for L159.2?

Margaret Jordan

wrote:
> L159.2 is found in southern Ireland. The haplotypes of your O'Shea Group 2 members suggest that they may be L159+. They might also benefit from DYS464X testing. Their haplotypes are similar to Leinster Cluster haplotypes, and the Leinster Cluster is not confined to the province of Leinster. Most members of the cluster receive a ccgg result on the DYS464X test which distinguishes them from most other R-L21 men. There are also some L159+ men within R-L21 whose haplotypes do not match the typical Leinster Cluster results, so L159 testing should be helpful outside the Leinster Cluster as well as inside it.
>
> Another recently discovered R-L21 SNP is L69.4, which is not common, but seems to have a widespread distribution. The L159 and L69 SNPs are located in the same region of the Y, and the sequencing for them is the same, so if one of these SNP tests is ordered, we can hope that Thomas Krahn of FTDNA will notify us if the test for that SNP is negative, but the sequencing reveals that the man is positive for the other SNP.
>
> The R-L21 WTY project is ongoing, so it's possible that there will be other SNPs of interest for R-L21 men to test as the WTY program continues.
>
> Kirsten Saxe
> R-L21 WTY Co-Administrator
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Margaret Jordan" <>
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 6:21:01 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
> Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
>
> SNP testing is becoming very useful in sorting out the connections
> within and between the the Irish surnames of the south of Ireland.
> R1b1b2a1b5 (L21+) seems to be widespread and I would like to see more
> Irish people with southern surnames determine their position in the
> haplotree by doing SNP testing.
>
> Below L21, is L226 the only other relevant SNP for us in the south of
> Ireland? If it is mostly Dalcassian what about Eoganacht SNPS below
> L21? Does anyone know of any useful ones?
>
> Margaret Jordan
> Ireland yDNA Project and O'Shea yDNA Project
>
> Elizabeth O'Donoghue wrote:
>
>> Dennis said:
>>
>> At the moment, Dalcassian is the best description for what we see in the DNA
>> results, both STR and SNP and no doubt, some pedigree
>> manipulation has taken place in the past to engineer a connection with
>> powerful families.
>> There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show the
>> Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
>> explained by the common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
>> their clan leader's name to show their allegiance.
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> I would add that there are collectively more non-Dalcassian names with the
>> Irish Type III signature than Dalcassian. And those names connected to the
>> O'Brien dynasty also contain many, if not more, haplotypes which are not the
>> Dalcassian Irish Type III. This is similarly evident amidst the recognized
>> Eoghanacht tribes in Munster, as well as the Connachta tribes of the north
>> who have recorded descent from Niall of the Nine Hostages, where the most
>> common O'Neill haplotype is not NWI.
>>
>> We had The O'Donoghue of the Glens (Irish Type II) tested for L226, and as
>> Dennis explained, that lineage is negative for L226. Both he and The
>> O'Brien have uncontested pedigrees in their respective tribes. According to
>> the historical tracts, they are supposed to have been descended from
>> brothers, living roughly around the time of Christ.
>>
>> Since there are still so many factors in choosing how to calculate an MRCA,
>> from mutation rates, to counting mutations, to years per generation, to
>> which markers to use in so calculating, I remain unconvinced of the level of
>> accuracy of anyone's figures (please, no offense to anyone), but my opinion
>> is that with such distinctively different haplotypes, let alone the presence
>> of a defining SNP, I doubt that there is any common ancestor between the
>> Eoghanacht and Dalcassians within the timeframe of their supposed common
>> ancestor.
>>
>> Nevertheless, the historical name of Dalcassian is a valid one, regardless
>> of its pedigree, and I agree with Dennis that it is an appropriate label to
>> give the L226 subclade.
>>
>> Elizabeth
>>
>>
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>>
>>
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