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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 17:02:28 EST


In a message dated 2/14/2010 4:35:21 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show the
Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
explained by the common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
their clan leader's name to show their allegiance.

There are several possible explanations for this. One could be the
O'Loughlins are actually Dal Cas but were given a pedigree from Ir for some
unknown reason. It could also be true that the genealogical construct of the
Dal Cas is artificial and the pedigrees do not show all members of the tribe.
In other words the Irish Type III could take in more than just what are
described as Dal Cais in the pedigrees. The O'Loughlins of Burren were
co-relatives of O'Connor Corcumroe and O"Connor Kerry. Are there any O'Connor
DNA samples that match the Irish Type III? Why were these septs given a
descent from Ir? Your idea is also a possibility. I thought the O'Loughlns
with their pedigree from Ir were a striking anomaly in the Irish Type III
universe.

These were said to be descendants of Fergus mac Roich, grandson of Ruadri
Mor, founder of Clanna Rory in Ulster. It may ultimately be tie into
mythology, in which Ciar, a son of Fergus mac Roich and Queen Medb of Connacht,
is said to be the founder of the Ciarraige (Co. Kerry). The pedigrees show
the ancestor of the O'Loughlins as another son of Fergus mac Roich, named
Corr. The split between O'Connor Kerry and O'Loughlin of Co. Clare is so
distant I doubt any of the early names in the pedigree are valid. The
O'Connor of Corcumroe split with O'Loughlin may well be genuine.

The Trinity college study made the point that the southern tribes showed
quite a different genetic makeup than the Ui Neill of the North, being much
more diverse and mostly showing more evidence of multiple founders.
There's an interesting quote in their second article:

:"In the closest ideals to monogenic
surnames encountered in this study (Ryan and
O’Sullivan) only about 50–55% of the modern surname
bearers still appear to descend from one original founder."

The M222 lines in descent from NIal (supposedly) seem to be much more
homogenous. Some 85% of all Doherty samples from Donegal are M222 and most
have certain shared markers that show a close relationship. They only have
small percentage of non M222 members (mostly I and R1a haplogroups). So far
I have not encountered any obvious mismatches in DNA among among surnames
linked to the old chieftains of the northern UI Neill except in the case of
the O'Neills. There could well be more out there somewhere.

I also do not know if describing M222, even in Ireland, as Ui Neill or
Connachta is completely accurate. A lot of people might argue about that.
There are lots of matches in Scotland and northern England that are most
likely neither in origin. A huge number of M222 matches in Ireland are of
unknown origin. We can't even assign a geographical origin to many of these
samples since most people don't really know where their ancestors came from.



John


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