GENEALOGY-DNA-L ArchivesArchiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266185836
From: Janet Crawford <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:17:16 +0000
Just a brief note to remind everyone that the genealogy for the Irish
cannot be trusted because they deliberately dropped out the daughters.
By doing that you can miss that a whole new DNA set can sneak in
unnoticed. You may think it is B mac A when it is really C mac B the
daughter of A. While you think you are tracking A's DNA, you are now
really tracking B's husband's DNA now.
On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 10:02 PM, <> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/14/2010 4:35:21 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show the
> Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
> explained by the common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
> their clan leader's name to show their allegiance.
> There are several possible explanations for this. One could be the
> O'Loughlins are actually Dal Cas but were given a pedigree from Ir for some
> unknown reason. It could also be true that the genealogical construct of the
> Dal Cas is artificial and the pedigrees do not show all members of the tribe.
> In other words the Irish Type III could take in more than just what are
> described as Dal Cais in the pedigrees. The O'Loughlins of Burren were
> co-relatives of O'Connor Corcumroe and O"Connor Kerry. Are there any O'Connor
> DNA samples that match the Irish Type III? Why were these septs given a
> descent from Ir? Your idea is also a possibility. I thought the O'Loughlns
> with their pedigree from Ir were a striking anomaly in the Irish Type III
> These were said to be descendants of Fergus mac Roich, grandson of Ruadri
> Mor, founder of Clanna Rory in Ulster. It may ultimately be tie into
> mythology, in which Ciar, a son of Fergus mac Roich and Queen Medb of Connacht,
> is said to be the founder of the Ciarraige (Co. Kerry). The pedigrees show
> the ancestor of the O'Loughlins as another son of Fergus mac Roich, named
> Corr. The split between O'Connor Kerry and O'Loughlin of Co. Clare is so
> distant I doubt any of the early names in the pedigree are valid. The
> O'Connor of Corcumroe split with O'Loughlin may well be genuine.
> The Trinity college study made the point that the southern tribes showed
> quite a different genetic makeup than the Ui Neill of the North, being much
> more diverse and mostly showing more evidence of multiple founders.
> There's an interesting quote in their second article:
> :"In the closest ideals to monogenic
> surnames encountered in this study (Ryan and
> O’Sullivan) only about 50–55% of the modern surname
> bearers still appear to descend from one original founder."
> The M222 lines in descent from NIal (supposedly) seem to be much more
> homogenous. Some 85% of all Doherty samples from Donegal are M222 and most
> have certain shared markers that show a close relationship. They only have
> small percentage of non M222 members (mostly I and R1a haplogroups). So far
> I have not encountered any obvious mismatches in DNA among among surnames
> linked to the old chieftains of the northern UI Neill except in the case of
> the O'Neills. There could well be more out there somewhere.
> I also do not know if describing M222, even in Ireland, as Ui Neill or
> Connachta is completely accurate. A lot of people might argue about that.
> There are lots of matches in Scotland and northern England that are most
> likely neither in origin. A huge number of M222 matches in Ireland are of
> unknown origin. We can't even assign a geographical origin to many of these
> samples since most people don't really know where their ancestors came from.
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|Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated by Janet Crawford <>|