Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266185836

From: Janet Crawford <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 2010 22:17:16 +0000
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>

Just a brief note to remind everyone that the genealogy for the Irish
cannot be trusted because they deliberately dropped out the daughters.
By doing that you can miss that a whole new DNA set can sneak in
unnoticed. You may think it is B mac A when it is really C mac B the
daughter of A. While you think you are tracking A's DNA, you are now
really tracking B's husband's DNA now.


On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 10:02 PM, <> wrote:
> In a message dated 2/14/2010 4:35:21 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
> There are some O'Loughlins, and other non-Dalcassian families that show  the
> Irish Type III STR signature, and this could be
> explained by the  common practice for followers of Medieval leaders to take
> their clan leader's  name to show their allegiance.
> There are several possible explanations  for this.  One could be the
> O'Loughlins are actually Dal Cas but were given  a pedigree from Ir for some
> unknown reason.  It could also be true that the  genealogical construct of the
> Dal Cas is artificial and the pedigrees do not  show all members of the tribe.
>  In other words the Irish Type III could  take in more than just what are
> described as Dal Cais in the pedigrees.   The O'Loughlins of Burren were
> co-relatives of O'Connor Corcumroe and O"Connor  Kerry.  Are there any O'Connor
> DNA samples that match the Irish Type  III?  Why were these septs given a
> descent from Ir?  Your idea is also  a possibility.  I thought the O'Loughlns
> with their pedigree from Ir were a  striking anomaly in the Irish Type III
> universe.
> These were said  to be descendants of Fergus mac Roich, grandson of Ruadri
> Mor, founder of Clanna  Rory in Ulster.  It may ultimately be tie into
> mythology, in which Ciar, a  son of Fergus mac Roich and Queen Medb of Connacht,
> is said to be the founder of  the Ciarraige (Co. Kerry).  The pedigrees show
> the ancestor of the  O'Loughlins as another son of Fergus mac Roich, named
> Corr.  The split  between O'Connor Kerry and O'Loughlin of Co. Clare is so
> distant I doubt any of  the early names in the pedigree are valid.  The
> O'Connor of Corcumroe split  with O'Loughlin may well be genuine.
> The Trinity college study made the  point that the southern tribes showed
> quite a different genetic makeup than the  Ui Neill of the North, being much
> more diverse and mostly showing more evidence  of multiple founders.
> There's an interesting quote in their second  article:
> :"In the closest ideals to monogenic
> surnames encountered in  this study (Ryan and
> O’Sullivan) only about 50–55% of the modern  surname
> bearers still appear to descend from one original  founder."
> The M222 lines in descent from NIal (supposedly) seem to be  much more
> homogenous.  Some 85% of all Doherty samples from Donegal are  M222 and most
> have certain shared markers that show a close relationship.   They only have
> small percentage of non M222 members (mostly I and R1a  haplogroups).  So far
> I have not encountered any obvious mismatches in DNA  among among surnames
> linked to the old chieftains of the northern UI Neill  except in the case of
> the O'Neills.  There could well be more out there  somewhere.
> I also do not know if describing M222, even in Ireland, as Ui  Neill or
> Connachta is completely accurate. A lot of people might argue  about that.
> There are lots of matches in Scotland and northern  England that are most
> likely neither in origin.  A huge number of M222  matches in Ireland are of
> unknown origin.  We can't even assign a  geographical origin to many of these
> samples since most people don't really know  where their ancestors came from.
> John
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