Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266204277

Subject: Re: [DNA] DYS395S1 (followed)
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 03:24:37 +0000 (UTC)
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Walsh" <>
Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 4:21:40 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [DNA] DYS395S1 (followed)

Yes, my list of key markers is longer, but it's also a little looser. I expect to see some variation, especially on the faster markers. DYS617 is pretty slow, so the variation seen there is interesting, and I don't have a feel for whether there have been any recent mutations, or for the direction of the mutations. Considering the variation among 11-13 haplotypes, the MRCA must have lived a long enough time ago for their to be some mutations on the slower key markers. It would be interesting to see how phylogenetic software divides the MacMartin group, what it does with 11-13 haplotypes, and what happens if both groups are combined in one run.

I did try to find a few more 67 marker haplotypes that meet the MacMartin criteria. All of the families that I checked had DYS406s1=11. Eubank/Eubanks BAEQY/7W6U9/TAJ48, Chism/Chisholm families 2RG9W/2W9DQ/CA4XR, Reilly 66ZM6 , and Lyons 6NRKN families have DYS617=12. I found Sullivan TMBRY and Higgins VQ5PM families that have DYS617=13. Driscoll and Newman have 11-13 as you noted earlier, and I think one of the other Martin men does not. So from this data, it looks like the group is fairly evenly divided and there may have been a split on DYS617 fairly early in its history.

There is a MacMartin Superfamily member participating in the WTY project, and it would be really nice if his participation led to the discovery of a SNP old enough to help us figure out something about the relationships between MacMartin and 11-13 men.

As we wait for news relating to this man's WTY participation, it might be possible to locate more 67 marker haplotypes by going to the appropriate surname and other projects for some of the surnames that I have identified as possible members of a MacMartin clade. By the way, I noticed that one man that I have listed as a possible member, Denney, is listed as a member of Haplogroup R1b1a. When I made the list, I intended to eliminate men with haplogroup assignments that exclude R-L21, but I may have missed Denney, or his ysearch entry may contain new information now. Since he does not have DYS492=13, I wouldn't exclude an error in the haplogroup assignment reported in the entry without a little investigation.

The 67 marker yearch entry for the MacMartin Superfamily includes two lists of names, one under variant spellings, and one listing additional names in the notes section. Each name appears in only one of the lists.

I think it would be neat if someone interested in the MacMartin Superfamily really delved into this group. Maybe if it turns out that they all descend from an 11-13 ancestor, you could be that person, but I suppose that you might want to encourage some helpers if that's true, because the 11-13 group is large as we have understood it. If it also includes all of these MacMartin men, then it is even bigger.


Yes, I actually had Driscoll and Newman in both an 11-13 sub-group as
well as the MacMartin group which I was labeling 2213MM (at least
recently) with the general criteria 390=22 388=13 389ii-i=15. I see
you have a more extensive criteria which I think is 439=13 458=16
464c=16 460=10 456=15 576=17 570=18 CDY=35,37 395s1a=16 406s1=11.

What do you think? Is the 617=13 mutation a recent mutation for
Driscoll and Newmans since it doesn't seem to appear in the rest of
MacMartin? ... I wish we had a few more 67 length haplotypes in the

Regards, Mike

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