Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266263938

Subject: Re: [DNA] FTDNA v. ISOGG R1b haplotree comparison updated
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 2010 14:58:58 EST

This is somewhat tangential to a discussion of Eoghanachta and Dal Cais
but the O'Loughlins do match the Irish Type III although their pedigree
deduces them from the line of Ir or the Red Branch of Ulster. Another well
known sept from the same line are the Maguinnesses of Co. Down and their
relatives, the McCartans. Both are mostly I haplogroup. There is quite a bit of
variation within the Maguinness samples but Patrick Maguiness states the
line of the chieftains were I haplogroup. The McCartans in the Trinity
study are 100% I haplogroup. The Maguinness sept, as Dal nAraidhe, were one of
the few Irish septs oonsistently labeled "Cruithin" by the annalists.
Obviously there is no shared descent involved here between O'Loughlins of
Munster and Maguinness of Ulster. I have no idea why the O'Loughlins were
given a Red Branch pedigree but I think it illustrates the artificial nature of
many of the old Irish pedigrees. There probably is no "Cruithin" DNA
signature any more than there seems to be a "Pictish" DNA signature in
Scotland. Some time ago I noticed that a large group of O'Driscolls were I
haplogroup and they are generally considered Erainn which O'Rahilly and others
equated with the Belgae, perhaps wrongly according to some.

The links between the O'Loughlins and the Red Branch of Ulster are very
old in Ireland. There's a small tract in Laud 610 (ca. 1000 AD) that
describes the Ciaraage and Corcumroe as descendants of Queen Medb and Fergus mac
Roich of Ulster.

The more I poke into DNA connections between Irish septs and pedigrees the
more murky the picture becomes. The Airgialla have a Connachta pedigree
yet few are M222. The various Airgialla chieftains of later centuries
(Maguire, McMahon, O'Hanlin) don't match each other which they should if all are
descended from Colla da crioch. The UI Maine of Connacht have two
pedigrees. One (the earliest) is Connachta.(Rawlinson B.502) A later pedigree
links them to the Airgialla. I don't think anyone has worked on this line
enough to know if either is true.

I think the pedigrees are useful in the historical period. But even here
there are problems. The MacLochlainn sept of Donegal were Kings of Aileach
and Kings of Ireland in the 12th century. Yet two contemporary pedigree
collections given them radically different pedigrees (Rawlinson B.502 and
the Book of Leinster), both compiled either during or shortly after the life
of Muirchertach MacLochlalinn, High King of Ireland, who d. 1166 AD.
Generations of Irish historians have spilled vats of ink tying to reconcile the
conflicting pedigrees. The most common theory today is the scribe of
Rawlinson B.502 "faked" his version of the pedigree to give the MacLochlainns
more illustrious ancestors (they gained three more HIgh KIngs in the
process). The O'Neills, sometimes said to have the oldest traceable pedigree in
Europe, also have two variant pedigrees from the same time period, the
earliest in the G2 MS followed by the Books of Ballymote and Lecan. Neither can
be validated from the annals. If one is fudged the reason is probably the
same as suggested for the MacLochlainns - to dress up the pedigree a bit.
If this can happen in the 12th and 13th century one can only guess at the
validity of earlier pedigrees.

Some have said Irish pedigrees were more political documents than genuine
genealogy. I suspect they're right in a lot of cases.


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