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From: "Elizabeth O'Donoghue" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sorting the Irish via DNA
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 15:28:09 -0000
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In-Reply-To: <2129367653.4009141266286565017.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


Kirsten,

You're certainly correct that there are other Irish modals - the 'Irish Sea'
modal being an example. But the quality of the modal is based on the
thoroughness and thoughtfulness of the person creating that modal. I
believe there are currently two Ysearch records - YGX5M, described as 'Irish
Sea', has only 10 markers, including DYS464a,b,c and YCA IIa, with its
origins listed as ' 350 users,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beatty_Byrnes_DNA/, Leinster, Ireland'. The
other is 'Irish Sea-Ewing', with ten different markers, including DYS385b
and 459a, and origins of 'Central (Scotland), Scotland'. An earlier 'Irish
Sea Modal' record of VC6NH had contained 37 markers, but it the ID now
belongs to a McKenna. What value could there be in such modals?

What I find when searching with some modals, using the maximum search
parameters of GD 6, particularly if the selected record used is truncated,
you end up with a selection of matches that sometimes contain a significant
number that vary from the particular off-modal (of the AMH) markers which
are meant to identify the Ysearch ID created. Usually, they contain the AMH
values instead, which to my mind questions the validity of the modal in the
first place.

In your own example of the Ysearch record, 4WSZR, which you entered called
'Irish-Viking?' you included a shorter 15 marker record, JSF9K, labeled
'Irish-Viking? off-modal + slow'. When I searched the first at 37 markers,
max GD of 6, I got 15 matches, 4 of them some other modal, and the only one
matching your distinguishing DYS578, 607, 393 and 442 completely was a
Burns, who probably belongs in the Beatty/Byrnes/Irish Sea group. Your
truncated modal includes matches from Slovakia to Algeria.

I'm sure it took you some time to study and develop this apparent modal, and
I appreciate your effort, but when so few people fit it, how relevant is it
for research purposes?
In contrast, the South Irish modal, which contains 4 distinct off modal
markers from the AMH at 37, contains a vast majority of Irish, with a
smattering of British Isles and very few continentals, with the unknown
origins invariably having Irish or BI surnames. I think that's a major
reason why the four main modals are just that - because they are strongly
Irish. That's why I don't think the 'Fourth Irish modal' is terribly
significant, since it seems too broad to be helpful.

I personally think there are too many manufactured modals in Ysearch now.
When a project administrator adds one, there is a justification for it, but
I'm sure the myriad entries are not limited to that type of entry. I'm
amazed how many such modals turn up when searching through Ysearch. I'm
always discarding some when I make comparisons.

Perhaps someday there will be more records in the database that would match
these smaller modals you posit. Hopefully, curious individuals and group
administrators will discover them as they arise. The searches continue!

Elizabeth

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: 16 February, 2010 2:16 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sorting the Irish via DNA

I think there are probably many more Irish modals that have been discovered
and have not become well-known, and I think it is interesting to ponder
about the reasons for that.


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