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From:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sorting the Irish via DNA
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 2010 02:42:21 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <369897199.4494651266374108722.JavaMail.root@sz0002a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>


The owner of the two ysearch entries is listed as Peter, and we do have a Peter in our project that has posted modal haplotypes under the "Irish Sea" name. I think he may have originated it. This V2BRC entry would probably pick up more Northwest Irish than the other one would. Whether the Northwest Irish and the Leinster share a common ancestor downstream of L21, I don't know.

You are right that I use the ysearch modal to cast a wide net, at least some of the time, and the Irish-Viking? group is one where I can do that and I need to do that. The signature for this group is really distinctive, so the skeleton haplotype that you found is really helpful for pulling up these haplotypes if you realize that a search on that skeleton haplotype with men who match on 12 markers will find all of the men in the group if you allow for the speed of some of the off-modal markers by allowing a GD of up to 2! That search finds all of the 12 men that I have identified as cluster members, and only turns up 8 men from 5 families that probably don't belong to the group. None of those 8 men match on more than one of the key markers 393, 607, and 442.

I have considered taking the fastest markers out of the skeleton haplotype so that it turns up as a perfect match most of the men in the group. That's not a perfect solution because many people would not even take a close look at a 12 marker match. Maybe some researchers of this group would because they don't have huge numbers of matches.

A search for men who match the 67 marker modal haplotype with a distance of 1 per marker above 50 some markers is helpful, and if somebody with a 37 marker haplotype does a similar search on that haplotype for men with a GD of 1 per marker above something like 25 markers, they will probably find the 67 marker haplotype. I've been tempted to post a 37 marker version, but the group is so small that for now I am content to just use the two haplotypes I have and search once a month or so. I know that there is also a way to do searches using Firebug to specify GDs greater than 6. I have installed Firebug, but have lost track of the directions for doing those searches, so I haven't tried the method.

Thank you for looking at the Donohue records for me. Most researchers in the position of your Donohue men would probably want to upgrade to 67 markers before investing in DYS464X or L159 testing, but we would be happy to have them in the DYS464X project if they are at least interested in further testing. If they upgrade to 67 markers and have DYS557=17 or higher and/or DYS446=14 or higher, then I think DYS464X and/or L159 testing for at least one of them would be a good investment. If they are interested and want to take a peek, please let them know that they can find the project listed as a geographical project with a name beginning with the number 4. I'd be happy to correspond with them.

I find it impossible to come up with good names for these large clusters based on geography because many of their members have moved. We have Leinster Cluster men with lines traced to locations more or less all over Ireland, and various locations in England and Scotland. Today I was thinking that the Leinster Expansion Cluster would be a better name. It's like the Northwest Irish Cluster. The name refers to a hotspot for it, and clearly the group expanded well there, but that's about all we can say for sure about the geography. It's funny, but at this point my tiny Irish-Viking? group fits the Irish Sea name better than the Leinster Cluster does, even with its one member traced to a Swede. The possible Viking connection might really fit the Irish Sea name.

Kirsten

----- Original Message -----
From: "Elizabeth O'Donoghue" <>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2010 6:55:24 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [DNA] Sorting the Irish via DNA

Kirsten, the other Irish Sea-Ewing modal is V2BRC - sorry I forgot to
include that. I believe both of them were entered by the same person, but I
don't think he is part of your 464xccgg project.

In any case, it would seem that you use the Ysearch tool to cast a wide net.
For me, I'm not searching to find hundreds of records loosely connected, so
my comments were made from a different point of view than yours. I'm
usually asking for matches with a higher number of markers tested in the
drop-down boxes. I hadn't even seen any Donohue matches within the
parameters I used when searching with YGX5M. When I followed your method, I
found them. Being land-locked Cavan men, it does beg the question of them
getting caught within an Irish 'Sea' modal...but that had no bearing on my
original remarks.

I took a look at the Donohue records for you. None of them have had any
advanced and/or SNP tests beyond the 37 marker tests.

I fully realize that we must leave the gates open for research - I did not
imply that it should be otherwise. I was just musing about how useful the
plethora of truncated modals is when trying to pin down true matches. For
me, it is not. Your approach shows me that many must use them so.

Thanks for the clarification.

Elizabeth


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