Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266670313

From: "Anatole Klyosov" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] DNA] PubMed abstract: Y haplogroup R1a1 in India
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2010 07:51:57 -0500
References: <>

>Subject: [To:

My response:

It is a good study in terms of factual data re. R1a1 in the upper (and
other) castes in India, however, it is a terribly bad study in terms of
interpretation of the data. If they would have compared the upper caste R1a1
haplotypes with European R1a1 haplotypes, they would saw practically
identical things.

It was a good finding that the upper castes in India contain up to 72% of
R1a1. But it was a wrong conclusion that it indicates the origin of R1a1.
Last night four of us R1a1 were in a bar, but we do not claim that that bar
is the origin of R1a1. There are plenty of villages in Russia which have
100% of R1a1, however, we do not claim that each of those villages is the
place of origin of R1a1.

It seems that the Aryans (R1a1) who migrated to India around 3500 ybp have
established those upper castes and took the high seats, and their
descendants still maintain the order. Of course after 3500 years there was a
dilution of R1a1 in the upper castes with other active guys, but 72% is
still pretty high figure. In some other cases it is 60%, or 45%, however, is
still the highest one overall in the upper castes.

Some Indian tribes also have the same European R1a1 source. The Chenchus,
for example, have the European R1a1 haplotypes, with two contributions, one
around 3,000 ybp, another only 350 years ago, in the 17th century.
Incidentally, it was the century when the Chenchus were discovered by the
Indian army. It is all described in the literature.

Having said that, I have to add that there is another population of R1a1 in
India and (mainly) in Pakistan, with TMRCA around 7125 ybp (in India) and
10,800 ybp and 12,400 ybp (both in Pakistan). They are different then the
European R1a1 and different then the upper caste R1a1 haplotypes. Besides,
there are even more ancient R1a1 in Northern China - South Siberia, with an
estimated TMRCA of 21,000+/-3,000 years before present. It seems that they
could be a source of the Indian-Pakistani ancient R1a1. It is published in
the literature as well.

An interesting story.

Anatole Klyosov

J Hum Genet. 2009 Jan;54(1):47-55. Epub 2009 Jan 9.

The Indian origin of paternal haplogroup R1a1* substantiates the
autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system.

Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer
AJ, Tiwari PK, Bamezai RN.

National Centre of Applied Human Genetics, School of Life Sciences,
Jawaharlal Nehru University, New Delhi, India.

Many major rival models of the origin of the Hindu caste system co-exist
despite extensive studies, each with associated genetic evidences. One of
major factors that has still kept the origin of the Indian caste system
obscure is the unresolved question of the origin of Y-haplogroup R1a1*, at
associated with a male-mediated major genetic influx from Central Asia or
Eurasia, which has contributed to the higher castes in India. Y-haplogroup
R1a1* has a widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia,
Asia and the Indian subcontinent, with scanty reports of its ancestral (R*,
R1* and R1a*) and derived lineages (R1a1a, R1a1b and R1a1c). To resolve
these issues, we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the
upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the
positions) with 55 Y-chromosomal binary markers and seven Y-microsatellite
markers and compiled an extensive dataset of 2809 Y-chromosomes (681
Brahmins, and
2128 tribals and schedule castes) for conclusions. A peculiar observation
of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1* in Brahmins
hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group. Further,
observation of R1a1* in different tribal population groups, existence of
Y-haplogroup R1a* in ancestors and extended phylogenetic analyses of the
dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians
bearing the R1a1* haplogroup supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1
in India and a tribal link to Indian Brahmins. However, it is important to
discover novel Y-chromosomal binary marker(s) for a higher resolution of
R1a1* and confirm the present conclusions.

This thread: