Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1266787193

From: Alan R <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] : variance of S116*
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 2010 21:19:53 +0000 (GMT)


Thanks again for carrying out all this work.  Again, as you point out, the results again would seem to suggest that U106, like S116 and U152 spread north of the Alps rather than by a Mediterranean route.  Although sample size urges caution (as L21 has shown), the pattern of southern Europe and particularly Italy being low on variance is consistent across all the main clades immediately downstream of P310.  So, I think your work has been very interesting in terms of what route these clades (and P310??) took across Europe.  I do not think anyone doubts that the big picture of R1b1b2 is that it moved from SE Europe/SW Asia westwards.  However, the route has remained uncertain.  For a long time I assumed we were looking at a central European route west but I had begun to wonder if a Mediterranean route was possible.  This was based on the presence of ht35 in Italy and the high proportion of S116* in Iberia.  However, your results sort of
suggest to me that the Italian ht35 is not ancestral to Italian ht15.  Are we looking at two completely different inputs into Italy - one ht35 (If that is still the correct term) input from the east at some period (what is its MRCA date?) and a late ht15 input as an overflow from central and western Europe to the north?  For Iberia, the dates seem to me to be suggestive of R1b1b2 there being the end of the trail for a central European east to west route rather than a Mediterranean one.  The small sample is however a concern for all of these speculations.  
The following is probably more a question for Vince V.  Does the distribution of P310*/L11* (I think this is the right terminology) suggest the same conclusion i.e. that P310 took a central European rather than Mediterranean trajectory when heading east?  


Tim said

  ...In summary, we are also seeing a north/south division in the R-U106*
data with relatively little variance in haplotypes from SW Europe and from
Italy.  There are also relatively few R-U106* haplotypes in the R-U106
project that originate from SW Europe and SE Europe with a total of only 11
67-marker haplotypes from these areas.  We are seeing the highest variance
for R-U106* on continental Europe in NE Europe and NW Europe with somewhat
less variance in Central Europe.  I find it of significant interest that
there is slightly more variance in Ireland than in any region on continental
Europe.  There is also a relatively high variance in Scotland.  This would
suggest that if R-U106 originated somewhere in northern Europe that it
reached Ireland and Scotland relatively quickly after R-U106 first appeared.
    R-L48 has the most variance in NW Europe and in the UK/Ireland.
Interestingly, R-L48 has higher variance in Ireland than it does in England.
In fact, R-L48 has the highest variance in Ireland among all of the regions.
    Overall, the data for R-U106*, R-P312/S116*, and R-U152* would
suggest that they came west through Europe via a route north of the Alps
rather than via a route south of the Alps.
Tim Janzen

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