Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1267237908

From: "Anatole Klyosov" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] DNA] The British Isles DNA Project
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 21:31:48 -0500
References: <>

>From: Margaret Jordan <>
>I am involved in administering theIreland yDNA Project and we also have a
>lot of data (over 3,500 members). We focus on the R1b1bs and put them into
>subclades groups as much as possible. Anatole, what would you suggest?

Dear Margaret,

I took a look at your list, it is quite impressive. A lot of things can be
done with the data. What would I suggest? Well, nothing really new. I would
suggest to provide the contributors with their "place" in the haplotype
universe, not with just a line in some 3,500-line list.

Let me explain. As a quickie thing, I took the R1a1 set from your list. The
set contains 37 of 67-marker haplotypes. I have composed a haplotype tree of
those 37 R1a1 haplotypes, which quite visibly splits into three branches.
One branch embraced "Scandinavian" R1a1 haplotypes (14 out of total 37, that
is 38%). Their base (presumably ancestral) haplotype was 13 25 15 11 11 14
12 12 10 13 11 30 in the 12-marker FTDNA format. Of course, I got it in the
67-marker format. A common ancestor of that branch lived 2125+/-370 years
before present (if to calculate from the first 25 markers) or 2275+/-320
years bp (if to calculate from the first 37 markers). This is the end of the
BC. I can only conjecture that it might have been Cimmerians (R1a1) who had
invaded Europe from the East and threatened the Roman Republic in the late
2nd century BC, and then, after being defeated, moved to Scandinavia. A
colleague of mine, Igor Rozhanskii, is currently studying into their DNA
genealogy. Their descendants on your list are ## 662, 671, 672, 690, 692,
698, 711-713, 716, 717, 725, 727, 728. Some of them might be excited to
learn about their possible ancestry.

Another branch is what I call "the Tenths", with DYS388=10. There are 8 of
the Tenths on the list. They form their distinct branch. A common ancestor
of those eight lived 2950+/-450 years before present, and he had the
following haplotype: 13 25 16 10 11 14 12 10 10 13 11 30 (again, I have the
67-marker base haplotype).

In fact, their common ancestor in Europe lived some 2,000 years earlier, and
those 8 haplotypes represent just a partial selection, maybe related just to

The rest of the tree, 14 more haplotypes, have the following base 12-marker
haplotype: 13 25 16 10 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 30. A common ancestor of the
branch lived 4675+/-660 years before present. It is actually a mix of the
Central European base haplotype and the Russian Plain base haplotype. Those
14 haplotypes do not provide a good resolution, still, it is rather
informative in this situation.

Of course, a thousand (or more) of 67-marker R1b1+ haplotypes would give a
much better resolved haplotype tree. All subclades with be there, and some
would be nicely resolved in terms of timespans to their common ancestors, as
well as geography of subclades. It is a wealth of information.

I am a proponent of the "molecular history", in which a principal tool is
not a shovel and a brush, but the DNA molecule. Your list is a powerful
source for that molecular history study. Please keep doing a good and
important work.


Anatole Klyosov

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