Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-02 > 1267238983

From: Vince Tilroe <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L21 and U106 Deep Clade Results
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 19:49:43 -0700
References: <> <F6FF521A9D1C40EA9A06E06CC9E91335@D7Q7Z571><>
In-Reply-To: <>

No, it's not surprising. It's not common, but it's been known to
happen. The first 37 markers have too many fast mutators which can
create illusionary inter-clade haplotype convergence, resulting in
false-positive matching. The 30 markers in Panel 4 have mainly slow
mutators that temper out this effect.

The modal haplotype for R-P312 and R-L21 is identical to the WAMH, and
only differs from the R-U106 modal haplotype on two markers: DYS390
(mode 24 for P312 & L21 and 23 for U106), and DYS492 (mode 12 for P312 &
L21 and 13 for U106). The modals for all other markers are identical in
both haplogroups. (Note that DYS492 is the second-last marker in Panel 4.)

So if DYS390=23 and DYS492=13, chances are that the haplotype is U106+,
and possibly L48+ as well; if DYS390=24 and DYS492=12, chances are that
the haplotype is P312+. But definitely not always.

It's also nearly impossible to tell a R-L21* haplotype apart form a
R-P312* haplotype without a deep-clade test, even at 67 markers.

Vince T.

Margaret Jordan wrote:
> Thank you Vince and Gary.
> Thank you Vince and Gary for your help. It is much appreciated.
> So, it isn't surprising to have an L21+ and U106+ close at 37 markers?
> The 106+ person has done 67 markers and is 12 at DYS492 but the L21
> person hasn't yet. I'll get that done.
> Thanks,
> Margaret
> Gary & Ann Blakely wrote:
>> Margaret,
>> I match 3 of your 4 L21+ values (my GATA H4=11) but I am U106+ as tested by
>> FTDNA, EA and 23andMe. In my three projects I do not see any pattern of
>> these markers in the few that have done the deep SNP tests. My L21 people
>> are all L226 also so they may not be representative of L21 in general.
>> Gary Blakely
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:
>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Margaret Jordan
>> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 4:28 AM
>> To:
>> Subject: [DNA] L21 and U106 Deep Clade Results
>> I have been surprised by Deep Clade test results for two members in the
>> O'Shea yDNA Project. Two individuals are only a genetic distance of 4
>> apart on 37 markers (FTDNA) and they have the same surname and their
>> ancestors come from the same county in Ireland (Kerry). One has tested
>> L21+ and the other tested U106+.
>> The person who is L21+:
>> DYS390=24
>> DYS391=10
>> DYS 460=11
>> DYS GATA H4=10
>> and person who is U106+ has:
>> DYS390=23
>> DYS391=11
>> DYS460=12
>> DYS GATA H4=11
>> DYS391 and DYS GATA H4 do seem to form a pattern with one "half" of the
>> Kerry Group having a value of 10 on DYS391 and a value of 10 on DYS GATA
>> H4 while the other "half" has values 11 and 11 respectively.
>> Other members of the project have tested L21+ and further testing is now
>> being done to see if the 106+ result is widespread and if it follows the
>> DYS391 & GATA H4 pattern of STR results.
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on the above?
>> Margaret Jordan

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