Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1267541764

Subject: Re: [DNA] DYS464X and DYF399X
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:56:04 +0000 (UTC)
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Hi Kamel,

I can't tell you very much about the observed speeds of markers in J2, but I can tell you that DYS464 and DYF399 are generally fast markers. DYF399 is so fast that people trying to find branching on short time scales have a good chance of finding helpful variation somewhere on the 3 DYF399 markers.

There is a table on Rootsweb with Y STR alleles frequencies that shows them for Haplogroup J2 that you may find helpful. I think the table was posted a couple of years ago by the late Leo Little, so I don't exactly how current it is, but I would guess that the frequencies calculated now would generally be pretty close to what was calculated when the table was created.

I can tell you that generally speaking, men outside Haplogroup R1b are gggg on the DYS464 markers, but there should be exceptions due to parallel mutations. I don't know of any such exceptions that have been found.

In most ways your DYF399X results look a lot like many of the DYF399X results that I have seen for Haplogroup R1b members. Most of those results show a t-c-t pattern with about 21 repeats for DYF399a, about 24 repeats for DYF399b, and about 25 repeats for DYF399c, but there is a lot of variation in the repeat counts. It is not too unusual to see a t-t-c pattern that appears to be the result of step mutations affecting the 399b and 399c alleles. The one difference that I see is that in R1b, the t type allele with the higher number of repeats usually has a micro allele (partial repeat) with one extra base. This is denoted by appending a ".1" to the whole number repeat count, e.g, 21t-24c-25.1t.

I haven't figured out whether the very fast DYF399 markers are useful for deep ancestry. Their high mutation rates probably make them very useful for genealogical time scales and not so useful for deep ancestry. The changes in DYS464X configurations within R1b are very helpful for recognizing clades, but changes in these configurations occur often enough that we have to be alert for lines that have had parallel or back mutations affecting their DYS464 markers. In some cases, their haplotypes give clues to the mutation events that have changed the configurations. Another clue that we have is close matches among men with the same surname who have different configurations, e.g. cccg and ccgg. There is a SNP mutation that has been found in the largest known ccgg cluster that can be helpful to us. There is one man (kit 88224) who matches the modal haplotype for men in the largest group of the 464xccgg project very well, but he is not ccgg like most of the men in that group. He is cccg. He does carry the SNP mutation (L159) that is found in most group members. So we conclude that he really is related.

Kirsten Saxe
administrator of the 464xccgg project

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kamel GAZZAH" <>
To: ,
Cc: "Kamel Gazzah" <>
Sent: Tuesday, March 2, 2010 6:04:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: [DNA] DYS464X and DYF399X

Hi All,
I received my DYF399X and DYS464X from Thomas as follows:
DYF399X 20t-22c-26t
DYS464X 12g-13g-16g-17g
I belong to J2a4h1 (L24+,L25+) haplogroup and wish to know :
- if any data available for these two markers in J2 haplogroup.
- How fast these markers are ?
- How are these markers useful for grouping different clusters inside a haplogroup ?
- Is DYS464 gggg common to all J2 people ? or to a more extended group ?
- Is DYF399 tct common to all J2 people ?
I found this project with 464 ccgg results , with most of participants in R1b haplogroup.
Kamel Gazzah

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