Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1267717558

From: SVass <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L4 added to ISOGG
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:45:58 -0800
References: <>
In-Reply-To: <>


What an opening you have left for me to respond. I start with a review of the facts.

I posted the following query at

Question for the experts-
I used A8KCC (L4+), 7K8CD (L2+), and JSN4E (L2-, L4-) as single entries compared to each other in Generations4 to estimate the interclade distance.
The program returned
256 with a SigmaG of 70 for L4+ vs. L2-,
211 with a SigmaG of 62 for L4+ vs. L2+,
160 with a SigmaG of 47 for L2- vs. L2+

My questions are:
1) Is this a valid way to demonstrate that European L2+ and L2- separated from each other long after the L4 branch split off from both?
2) Does Generations4 estimate interclade distance using a single entry per clade?

I received a yes from the noted author of Generations4 for the second query although he commented that the error bounds are large.

I also found a new Ashkenazi person tested positive for L4 in a second cluster who was a genetic distance of 10 from a member of the first cluster at 37 markers. 5TA43 at ysearch is shown with a green haplogroup assignment in the Jewish R1b FTDNA project and confirmed as positive via private communication with the testee. (I since have found a second Ashkenazi sample tested positive in that cluster with another origin.) The estimate to the common ancestor for each separate cluster is around 600 to 1000 years. Several members of one cluster appear to be Sephardim and family lore of one of its members concurs.

Cruciani et al released a paper claiming that R1b1-P25* traveled westward across North Africa. They used their discredited (by me and others) 0.0007 mutation rate to estimate the coalescence age at 10,000 years. Anatole Klyosov and I recomputed the age using their data and calculated an age of around 4500 years for that migration. Anatole has also stated that he believes that R1b reached Spain by that route.

I have been in communication with an historian, Dierk Lange professor of African History at Bayreuth University
Expand his map at which agrees with the travels across Africa and then to Spain.
or read his opinion on the origin of Cameroonian R1b1-P25* at
especially 2008 "Immigration of the Chadic-speaking Sao towards 600 BCE ", Borno Museum Society Newsletter 72-75 (2008), 84-106 wherein he estimates the migration at 2600 to 3600 years.

Finally, there was tv a show on good King Tut that may have included a few STR measurements with implications of a logical connection to the above. I now have a paper copy of the JAMA article.

So, I have summarized the evidence that indicates that L4 separated from the European clusters long before they entered Europe. R1b subclades went south through the Levant into Egypt and Nubia. There may have been mutations along the way and a few may have migrated back again from Nubia to Egypt to the Levant. I leave open the question of whether Tut was one of the R1b in Africa for future discussion. I believe that one day an L4 positive Jewish sample will appear whose values at 385a/b are 11-14 instead of 14-14. In conclusion, I believe that R1b-L4 was probably one of the original haplogroups in Judea more than three thousand years ago.

sam vass

On Mar 3, 2010, David Faux wrote:

> Sam,
> I believe that you have a specific view on the origin of this haplogroup, found primarily among those of Ashkenazi descent. Perhaps your perspective
> has changed of late. How do you presently see this marker fitting into Ashkenazi and perhaps earlier history?
> David K. Faux.
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:03 AM, SVass <> wrote:
>> L4 added to ISOGG yDNA haplogroup tree at same level as L2 under U152 as
>> R1b1b2a1a2d4

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