Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1267725732

From: David Faux <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L4 added to ISOGG
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:02:12 -0800
References: <><>
In-Reply-To: <>


It is good to have a number of hypotheses on the table; and you may very
well be correct.

It is hardly a secret that I put absolutely no stock whatsoever in
concocting a molecular clock for the Y chromosome at this point - there is
disagreement in every quarter of the field from genetic genealogists to
population geneticists. So we wait.

What appears to be most parsimonious is to attribute the origin of L4 to an
offshoot of the R-U152* who have DYS492=14. All indicators point to the
"home" of this variant as being at or near the apparent point of origin of
all U152 - the headwaters of the Rhine and Danube. Some sort of loop from
the Levant via North Africa into Spain does not seem to fit even in the
remotest sense with what we see today in terms of the distribution of this
haplogroup. Possible of course, but I think unlikely. As I have always
maintained, it would seem most reasonable to look at the likelihood that
after 79 AD, some Jews crossed into Southern Germany from Italy and via
introgression L4 (already present in Southern Germany where it is still
found to this day) simply became part of the Ashkenazi tapestry with most
migrating eastward in the Middle Ages. I could be right :-)

David K. Faux.

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 7:45 AM, SVass <> wrote:

> So, I have summarized the evidence that indicates that L4 separated from
> the European clusters long before they entered Europe. R1b subclades went
> south through the Levant into Egypt and Nubia. There may have been
> mutations along the way and a few may have migrated back again from Nubia to
> Egypt to the Levant. I leave open the question of whether Tut was one of
> the R1b in Africa for future discussion. I believe that one day an L4
> positive Jewish sample will appear whose values at 385a/b are 11-14 instead
> of 14-14. In conclusion, I believe that R1b-L4 was probably one of the
> original haplogroups in Judea more than three thousand years ago.
> sam vass

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