GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives

Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1267748855


From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L4 added to ISOGG
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:27:35 -0800
In-Reply-To: <D9C8D80C-3C79-4614-B614-58DDEA647220@comcast.net>


Dear Sam,
There are only 4 R-L4+ haplotypes in the FTDNA R-U152 project at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=yresults.
The countries of origin are only given for two of them: Latvia and Ukraine.
The surnames of the other two would suggest that they came from Eastern
Europe, Russia, or Ukraine. One of these two (Broniatowski) was apparently
from Poland per David Faux' database. I did an intraclade coalescence age
estimate on the 3 67-marker haplotypes and got the following results:
50 markers: 457
24 slow markers: 694

I also ran an intraclade coalescence age estimate on the 4 37-marker
haplotypes and got the following results:
25 markers: 1113
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 1362

Based on relatively few haplotypes it would appear that the R-L4 SNP
occurred less than 2000 years ago. When taken in conjunction with all of
the other available data about R-U152, I would suggest that R-L4 likely
originated somewhere in Eastern Europe and probably not in the Levant. If
you have more R-L4+ haplotypes feel free to send them to me and I will run
revised calculations.

I ran an interclade TMRCA estimate using 3 R-L4+ 67-marker
haplotypes and 94 R-L2+ 67-marker haplotypes. These are the results:

10 slow markers: 17689
10 slow medium markers: 15577
10 medium markers: 4015
10 medium fast markers: 3998
10 fast markers: 4734
50 markers: 6077
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 3230
24 slow markers: 11827
55 markers using Ken Nordtvedt's program Generations4: 6439

I also ran an interclade TMRCA estimate using 23 R-U152+ 67-marker
haplotypes that were L2- with DYS 492=12 and 94 R-L2+ 67-marker haplotypes.
These are the results:

10 slow markers: 7471
10 slow medium markers: 4938
10 medium markers: 4399
10 medium fast markers: 3600
10 fast markers: 2947
50 markers:3797
10 YHRD markers using YHRD mutation rates: 4585
24 slow markers: 5358
55 markers using Ken Nordtvedt's program Generations4: 4109

The above results would suggest that R-U152 is in the range of 3500
to 5000 years old.

I decided to take a look at the R-U152+, L2- data from Charles
Kerchner's project at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx and from David
Faux's database at http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm. After
removing the duplicate haplotypes I was left with 30 37-marker or 67-marker
haplotypes that trace their origins to continental Europe. I categorized
these haplotypes into 7 countries or regions:
1. NE Europe (Poland, Hungary, and Bukovina)
2. Italy
3. Germany
4. Switzerland
5. France
6. Spain

I calculated intraclade coalescence age estimates for the haplotypes
which are as follows:
7 37-marker samples from NE Europe: 3865
2 37-marker samples from Italy: 1042
8 37-marker samples from Germany: 2119
5 37-marker samples from Switzerland: 2576
5 37-marker samples from France: 4454
3 37-marker samples from Spain: 2441

I also looked at the R-U152+, L2+ data from the above two web sites.

After removing the duplicate haplotypes I was left with 71 37-marker or
67-marker haplotypes that trace their origins to continental Europe. I
categorized these haplotypes into 6 countries or regions:
1. Eastern Europe
2. Italy
3. Germany
4. Switzerland
5. France
6. Spain

I calculated intraclade coalescence age estimates for the R-U152+, L2+ 37-
marker haplotypes which are as follows:
11 37-marker samples from Eastern Europe: 3865
6 37-marker samples from Italy: 2473
23 37-marker samples from Germany: 3229
8 37-marker samples from Switzerland: 2101
19 37-marker samples from France: 3448
3 37-marker samples from Spain: 2197

I calculated intraclade coalescence age estimates for the R-U152+, L2+ 67-
marker haplotypes which are as follows:
9 67-marker samples from Eastern Europe: 3514
3 67-marker samples from Italy: 1601
15 67-marker samples from Germany: 3680
5 67-marker samples from Switzerland: 2470
13 67-marker samples from France: 3554

While we still have relatively small numbers of R-U152+ L2-
haplotypes, the highest variance is currently in France and Eastern Europe.
The variance for R-L2+ haplotypes is fairly similar between Eastern Europe,
France, and Germany.
I would suggest not using only one haplotype for each subclade when
doing interclade TMRCA estimates using the Generations4 program. I believe
that it is best to include a representative sample of haplotypes from both
subclades. The precise number of haplotypes from both subclades that
produces the most accurate result is certainly open for debate. I often
find that I get "reasonable" interclade TMRCA estimates with only 5-10
haplotypes in each subclade, however, I certainly prefer to have more than
that. I have found that if I include over 100-200 haplotypes in each
subclade that interclade TMRCA estimates tend to start moving lower although
this effect isn't as pronounced as it is with intraclade coalescence age
estimates.
Sincerely,
Tim Janzen

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of SVass
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 7:46 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] L4 added to ISOGG

Question for the experts-
I used A8KCC (L4+), 7K8CD (L2+), and JSN4E (L2-, L4-) as single entries
compared to each other in Generations4 to estimate the interclade distance.
The program returned
256 with a SigmaG of 70 for L4+ vs. L2-,
211 with a SigmaG of 62 for L4+ vs. L2+,
160 with a SigmaG of 47 for L2- vs. L2+

My questions are:
1) Is this a valid way to demonstrate that European L2+ and L2- separated
from each other long after the L4 branch split off from both?
2) Does Generations4 estimate interclade distance using a single entry per
clade?

So, I have summarized the evidence that indicates that L4 separated from the
European clusters long before they entered Europe. In conclusion, I
believe that R1b-L4 was probably one of the original haplogroups in Judea
more than three thousand years ago.

sam vass



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