Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1267819533

From: SVass <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] L4 added to ISOGG
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:05:33 -0800
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Repeating one paragraph from another message:

"Finally, I went to the Faux website and copied the four L2- , DYS492 =14 persons with 67 markers to Generations4 I repeated the interclade age calculation to one L4 person and got ages that ranged from 106 to 147 generations with SigmaG ranging from 35 to 43.
Whether the distance between L2- and L4+ is 100 generations or 200 generations is not important for my original purpose. L4 clearly predates the Diaspora!"
We await more data on L4.

You originally asked for my opinion which I gave along with some supporting evidence. Others intervened with commentary and I have now responded to them. Remember a few years ago, some claimed that my own R1b1-P25* was from European ingression. One "expert" speculated on the Netherlands as the source. I believe that that belief has now been superceded by a general recognition of a Middle Eastern origin. As an aside, I have even found four new members of my cluster in the last week with one from Gwent, South Wales.

Sam Vass

On Mar 4, 2010, David Faux wrote:

> Sam,
> It is good to have a number of hypotheses on the table; and you may very well be correct.
> It is hardly a secret that I put absolutely no stock whatsoever in concocting a molecular clock for the Y chromosome at this point - there is
> disagreement in every quarter of the field from genetic genealogists to population geneticists. So we wait.
> What appears to be most parsimonious is to attribute the origin of L4 to an offshoot of the R-U152* who have DYS492=14. All indicators point to the
> "home" of this variant as being at or near the apparent point of origin of all U152 - the headwaters of the Rhine and Danube. Some sort of loop from
> the Levant via North Africa into Spain does not seem to fit even in the remotest sense with what we see today in terms of the distribution of this
> haplogroup. Possible of course, but I think unlikely. As I have always maintained, it would seem most reasonable to look at the likelihood that
> after 79 AD, some Jews crossed into Southern Germany from Italy and via introgression L4 (already present in Southern Germany where it is still
> found to this day) simply became part of the Ashkenazi tapestry with most migrating eastward in the Middle Ages. I could be right :-)
> David K. Faux.

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