Archiver > GENEALOGY-DNA > 2010-03 > 1268490283

From: "Sean M. Silver" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Ethnic core, social class structure and DNA
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:24:43 -0500
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I do agree that when investigating either ancient origins of a people or
recent genealogical links, there is no genetic replacement for historical
research. It is honestly paramount to my own projects, else I would never
have been able to start forming thesis when faced with surprising data. I
believe that DNA has always been seen as an integral tool for genealogical
and anthropological research, but it can't be the only tool. That's where
the creativity comes in to be able to tie in data into cohesive hypothesis.

With all the "bad press" regarding genetic research over the past several
years, having new positive lights such as the television show "Who Do You
Think You Are" and stars showing up on Oprah regarding this historic and
genetic journal could start to bring genetic genealogy into the public
consciousness and spark interest. Only then will we possibly begin to see
the larger populations, or distinct populations such as nobility, begin to
test, as well as share their results. After all, even though we've come a
long way, genetic genealogy as a science is still in its relative infancy in
terms of where it can go.

The only thing I would caution is using historical or genetic results as an
absolute, such as the early notion that R1b came exclusively from the
Iberian peninsula during the Last Glacial Maxim. This assertion has made
such efforts of bringing to light other R1b (i.e. What is commonly referred
to as ht35), which has no relation to the Western Modal for more than ten
thousand years and which likely was never in Europe, an uphill battle of
legitimacy. Only recently has the community began to embrace this notion
with the support of Dr. Michael Hammer and others. We have to be pragmatic
and scrutinize theories, but we also have to keep an open mind.


Message: 6
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:49:08 -0300
From: "Ricardo Costa de Oliveira" <>
Subject: [DNA] Ethnic core, social class structure and DNA
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Anthony Smith a theoricist of ethnosymbolism argues that nations tend to be
formed on the basis of a pre-modern ?ethnic core?. If there?s such social
fact and a demographic structure forming an ?ethnic core?, so we can find
the DNA associated to an existing ?ethnic core?. The ?ethnic core? would be
composed of a regular historical set of haplotypes and genetic signatures
related to the Y DNA and the mtDNA of an ethnie. In the same way that a
language means and represents a community sharing the same language and the
same genes from hundreds or thousands of years. By the ethnogenesis process
different admixtures have created a new population and after some time the
population is sharing common ancestors in a defined territory, society,
economy, culture and political institutions with a proper language related
to the National State. The process of expansion of the ethnic core and the
National State can lead to the conquest and colonization of new lands and
the creation of an Empire. Both my Y DNA and mtDNA haplotypes are
specifficaly related to the Brazilian history as part of the expansion of
our ?ethnic core? since the Minho, in the Medieval Ages. If the Y DNA
haplotypes and the mtDNA haplotypes are more or less found concentrated only
in a specific population, with the same language, religion and State
throughout the centuries, in the same pattern of evolution and continuity,
we can understand the dynamics of those totalities connecting DNA,
territory, language, religion, statehood and nation.

Another possible issue and important question is related to the relations
between the social structure and the genetic structure of the societies.

There?s the possibility of a complete randomic and aleatory distribution of
haplogroups, haplotypes and genetic clusters in a society or there?s a
direct relation involving social structure and genetic structure. The case
of direct connections between some haplogroups and genetic clusters with
social status or not. That?s a historical and political relationship, not a
genetically innate one. There are some studies about the genetic structure
of the Indian castes, represented by some different haplogroups. In the
American continent the Amerindian and African haplogroups can be found
sometimes more concentrated in the lower classes as a direct effect of
history and slavery. The longue dur?e of the ?status quo?. If genetic
genealogy can detect the genetic signatures of the upper classes or the
historical ethnic cores of the societies that would be extremely important
to Historical Sociology. Possible cases like the presumed haplotypes of
Genghis Khan and Niall are highlights of genetic genealogy and have already
been discussed but we need more collective data mining. The Anglo-Saxons and
the Britons in Britain, the Turks and the Anatolians in Turkey, for
instance, are complete randomic admixtures or not in terms of social
structure ? In Iberia the article about the Genetic Legacy of Religious
Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and
Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula asked the right question but failed to
answer. If in the American continent there?s a direct connection of
haplogroups and social destiny or social origins in the past as part of the
conquest and colonization of the continent, we don?t have any research about
the genetic composition of the old European Nobility, for example, to
observe if there?s any possible association or not related to the existence
and distribution of different haplotypes and historical social ?status quo?
in Europe. We need more historical data related to anthroponomy or the
anthroponomic analysis of individual destinies, class structure and DNA in
terms of the longue dur?e.

Ricardo Costa de Oliveira

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