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From: "Bryan" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] GENEALOGY-DNA Digest, Vol 5, Issue 266
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:14:54 +1030
In-Reply-To: <mailman.409.1268636526.24189.genealogy-dna@rootsweb.com>


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-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Monday, 15 March 2010 5:32 PM
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Subject: GENEALOGY-DNA Digest, Vol 5, Issue 266



Today's Topics:

1. Re: Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA (Ken Nordtvedt)
2. Re: The tree house definition (was: Clades, Definitions,
Discoveries, FTDNA) (Ken Nordtvedt)
3. Re: Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA (Ken Nordtvedt)
4. Re: Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA (Tim Janzen)
5. Beheaded Vikings found at Olympic site (Robert Tar?n)


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Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:02:48 -0600
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA
To: <>
Message-ID: <01bf01cac3fc$c3099340$>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Bird" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA


>
> There is on average one SNP for every 1000 base pairs in the human
genome.
> Most of them are useless for purposes of genetic genealogy. What is
your
> point?

[[ You beat me to the punch; I was going to ask what's your point? The
whole genome is not part of this discussion of y snps. I believe there
are
only about 25 million practical base pairs on the y where we look for
the
ysnps. The exact number 25 million is not important, but that's the
ball
park. The number of snps already found on the y tree is a tiny, tiny
and
unimportant fraction of all the snps sitting there in the y tree.

If the 25 million number of useful base pairs on the y chromsome is
about
right, and we concluded in the previous post that EACH of these base
pairs
has mutated many times in the y tree, the total number of snp mutational

tags sitting on the y tree is "many times 25 million" Just think of all
the
snp uncovering yet to do. Ken ]]




------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:18:34 -0600
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] The tree house definition (was: Clades,
Definitions,Discoveries, FTDNA)
To: <>
Message-ID: <01c801cac3fe$f723aba0$>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original


----- Original Message -----
From: "Angela Cone" <>

> We need definitions to make sure that people are talking about the
same
> thing. [[ Well sure ]]

[[ It was established that we were talking about:

clades = collections of descendants from single
sources/founders/MRCAs/origins

Specifically, collections of y haplotypes descended from single
ancestral y
haplotypes (the founders or MRCAs)


I really don't think you should try to brush under the rug fundamental
disagreements on essential things by ascribing it to misunderstandings
with
words or definitions,
unless you are really sure you can explain that fully that's the case.
Bringing and sharpening authentic disagreement on essential things to
the
light of day, if they exist, is really the guts of useful scientific
discussion. Ken ]]




------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 23:21:47 -0600
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA
To: <>
Message-ID: <01d101cac3ff$6a024190$>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original

I just dropped a "million" from my comment. For those just tuning in.
Correction is below

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Nordtvedt" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Bird" <>
>
>> Let's do the numbers:
> [[That's sure welcome; some one around here who wants to do the
numbers ]]
>>
>>
>> There were 134 million births last year, according to the U.N.
estimates.
>> Half of these were boys, so about 67 million boys. The odds of a SNP
>> occurring, according to Hartwell 2008, are 1 in a billion. That
means
>> that there is just a 6.7% chance of a Y-SNP occurring within ONE
birth
>> among those 67 million boys last year. Following your logic, on
average,
>> ONE new SNP occurs among all births every 15 years or so. However,
since
>> the new SNP is always de novo and can occur anywhere, and there are 3
>> billion base pairs in the human genome, the odds of any one SNP being
>> duplicated are 3.0 * 10 to the -17 power.
>
> [[ For purposes of the Y tree we are only interested in the mutations
at
> base pairs on the y chromosome. I'll take 25 million base pairs in
the y
> as
> the practical region.
>
> 67 million males were born last year. EACH base pair on the y has
your
> one in a
> billion chance of mutating. So EACH base pair had a .067 chance of
> mutating
> last year. So EACH base pair had a chance of approximately ONE to
mutate
> over about 16 years. That's half a generation --- so in half a
generation
> EACH and every practical snp site on the y chromosome has on average
> mutated
> once. I still don't know why you are bringing the 3 billion base
pairs of
> the whole genome into the picture. The snps used for the male y tree
are
> only from the y chromosome. Ken ]]
>
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>




------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:51:58 -0700
From: "Tim Janzen" <>
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"

Dear Steve,
We still don't know the true average number of Y SNPs that occur
per
generation, but it appears that in general in any given lineage that Y
SNPs
are occurring with a frequency of between one every 3 to 6 generations.
See
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-04/1238
9114
09 and
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2009-04/1238
9281
92. As we move into complete Y sequencing more and more in the next
several
years, improving the accuracy of the sequencing of the Y chromosome will
be
important and will help reduce the frequency in which erroneous SNPs
that
are reported need to be tested in other people. As Ken mentioned, there
are
a lot of relatively private SNPs that have occurred within the past
500-1000
years that are still awaiting discovery.
Sincerely,
Tim

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Steven Bird
Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 9:31 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [DNA] Clades, Definitions, Discoveries, FTDNA


There were 134 million births last year, according to the U.N.
estimates.
Half of these were boys, so about 67 million boys. The odds of a SNP
occurring, according to Hartwell 2008, are 1 in a billion. That means
that
there is just a 6.7% chance of a Y-SNP occurring within ONE birth among
those 67 million boys last year. Following your logic, on average, ONE
new
SNP occurs among all births every 15 years or so. However, since the
new
SNP is always de novo and can occur anywhere, and there are 3 billion
base
pairs in the human genome, the odds of any one SNP being duplicated are
3.0
* 10 to the -17 power.



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 01:28:47 -0500
From: Robert Tar?n <>
Subject: [DNA] Beheaded Vikings found at Olympic site
To:
Message-ID:
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

A mass grave containing 51 beheaded bodies has been uncovered in
Weymouth,
England. Radiocarbon dating placed the remains between A.D. 890 and
1030.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TECH/science/03/12/viking.olympics/index.html

The story doesn't specify but I wonder if DNA testing has been or will
be
conducted.


------------------------------

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End of GENEALOGY-DNA Digest, Vol 5, Issue 266
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